Tony Fleecs Interview - The Thing

[00:00:00] Your ears do not deceive you. You've just entered the Cryptid Creator Corner brought to you by your friends at Comic Book Yeti. So without further ado, let's get on to the interview. Y'all, Jimmy the Chaos Goblin strikes again! I should have known better than to mention I was working on my DC Universe meets Ravenloft hybrid D&D campaign on social media. My bad. He goes and tags a bunch of comics creators we know and now I have to get it in gear and whip this campaign into shape so we can start playing.

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[00:00:59] Now I'm set to easily build high res animated maps saving myself precious time and significantly adding nuance to our campaign. That's a win every day in my book. Check them out at arkhamforge.com and use the discount code YETI5 to get $5 off. I'll drop a link in the show notes for you and big thanks to Arkham Forge for partnering with our show. I think I'm gonna make Jimmy play a goblin warlock just to get even. Hello and welcome to Comic Book YETI's cryptic creator corner.

[00:01:27] I am one of your hosts, Jimmy Gasparo, and I am very excited that I have a returning guest to the podcast and also someone that I've had the pleasure of meeting in person at my favorite Comic Con, Baltimore Comic Con. And you will probably recognize some of their works that I've enjoyed such as Stray Dogs, Feral, Local Man with Tim Seeley, Army of Darkness Forever.

[00:01:57] And, oh, Uncanny Valley, which I want to talk about as well. And he also has a new series, The Thing, coming out with Marvel that's going to be out in May. And super excited to talk to today's guest, Tony Fleece. Tony, welcome to the podcast or welcome back to the podcast. Jimmy, happy to be back. Like, last time I was here, I was in the wilderness of Maryland.

[00:02:23] I was at my aunt and uncle's place in Elkton, and their internet is so... Listen, their place is so beautiful that it doesn't even matter to me that their internet is so shitty. I felt like I was contacting you from, like, a dial-up internet in 1995. I really was worried that, like, the video... I mean, the audio turned out okay. Yeah. But I don't think we ever used the video because it looked like a found footage, like, horror film. Yeah, we liked the Blair Witch Project. Yeah.

[00:02:53] A little bit. Justin Greenwood, who, you know, started off with you doing the art on Army of Darkness Forever. Yeah, Justin was on as well. Um, so, you know, I'm glad to have you back. Uh, um, some of the... All the stuff that you've been working on, I mean, I was a big fan of stray dogs. And that is something... I think, like, right off the bat is kind of, like, a tough premise to sell.

[00:03:22] Especially because Trisha's art is so kind of, like, adorable at times. And you're like, oh, I'm gonna take these dogs. And it's... This is gonna be heart-wrenching. Um, and then you follow it up with something like Feral at Image Comics, which, you know, for listeners who, you know, aren't familiar with it, I mean, I think it was... The first tagline I saw for it, or, like, kind of elevator pitch idea, was the Walking Dead

[00:03:50] meets the Aristocats, which, for my money, very underrated Disney film. Yeah, yeah. Jazzy, sassy, cute kittens and stuff. Yeah. Uh, yeah. Um, uh, you know, I really love that one. Um, so yeah, I mean, I want to kind of start there with Feral. Because I know, since you've been on, and in September, I think it was September and in October, you kind of did, like, a Feral World Tour. Mm-hmm.

[00:04:19] I kind of want to hear, like, how that went. What was that like getting out to, like, comic shops? Well, so, first of all, uh, the Stray Dogs, it sounds like a hard premise to pitch to people, but it actually is, out of all of them, the easiest one. Like, out of all my... Oh, really? Yeah, it's the easiest pitch. It's the easiest sale. I, when I'm at conventions, when I tell people the premise of it, there's a part when I'm explaining it to them that they just go like, oh, I'll take that, you know? Yeah.

[00:04:48] I mean, it's, it's, it's fantastic. Um, to me, it just seems like when you have, you know, anytime when you have, like, dogs and it's, they're, they're in a pack and it's, you know, there's, there's, I, maybe it's because I'm a dog person. Oh, sure. There's, like, a connection. What you're saying is that when everyone asks, but does anything happen to the dog, right? Yeah. That is, that is a difficult part of the pitch. And sometimes you will lose people there.

[00:05:14] But I, I just sort of lean on the idea that like, well, everything we love has, you know, like the reason why, why that hurts us so much is because we fall in love with these characters. And that's sort of what, what we do in the book and what we, what we're doing in Feral is like building up these characters and a little bit of is cheating because they're so cute and they're so helpless and you just want to see them survive. Um, but yeah, but there are, there are some people that, that they're just like, if anything happens, the dog, I can't handle it.

[00:05:44] Although I do think some of them are faking. It's like people that say they're terrified of clowns. Like some people are terrified of clowns, but some people just say that because, you know, like that, like people that don't like the word moist or whatever. It's like, all right, not everybody that says that it really has a physical reaction to the word moisture. Yeah. That's, that's, uh, yeah, that's probably right. That's something that's been my experience in selling this book, uh, you know, over the past, it's been out for four years now.

[00:06:10] I keep getting these Facebook, uh, anniversary reminders of like, here's when stray dogs came out and it's four years ago. It was crazy. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Um, yeah, I, I still remember when it, like when I first heard of it and like, I think I got one of the very, one of the variant covers that, that image did, but I, I was just so struck by it and I, I had that, Ooh, this is going to be, you know, a little rough, but,

[00:06:36] uh, I, I did, I, I fell in love with the characters because one, I love dogs. So that's, that's an easy kind of thing right there. But also with your writing, Trisha's artwork, you really do imbue so much personality like into these dogs without it being to the point of, you know, cartoony or two or caricature, you know? So, well, yeah, that's sort of the, like why we wanted to keep doing it.

[00:07:05] Why we wanted to go on and make feral was that we felt like we sort of had, it's not like we invented this, you know, like they're like we three is basically the same format as this. It's, it's so much from the animals perspectives that we never have people, we never have, you know, like if people are in it, they're like, uh, you know, like a large truck moving around or like a tree or something like it does. It's not that big a deal to the, to these animals. They're definitely not talking to them.

[00:07:34] And that's sort of how you lock into these, these animals, uh, perspective, at least how, how we work it. Um, and I feel like that really works for the stories that we tell that like the people reading our books, um, they, they meet these characters and, and we don't give them any, anywhere else to go. Like you're just in this story with these characters and, um, and you sort of start to see through their eyes, like the, the low, low to the ground perspective that they see

[00:08:04] just being smaller than us, but also what makes them different from us. So, you know, like things that they can do that we can't do or things that, you know, like the, the thing we always said with stray dogs is like any person could get out of this situation easily by just opening a door, you know, but these adults, you know, they can't do that. And so, um, that, that was what made us want to come back and do barrel was that just like we loved working in this sort of niche that we had sort of carved out for ourselves, the

[00:08:31] sort of like creepy, cute, um, but very sincere. And like, uh, we're never, it's, it's not a joke and we're never like, you know, we're never winking at anybody. Like this is just, this is just a story that looks like this and you should feel the way you felt when you would watch, uh, the secret of Nim or, you know, like, or like those movies where it's a little, you're a little bit uneasy because it doesn't feel as safe as say,

[00:08:57] like, you know, Aladdin, even the Lion King was, you know, Mufasa got thrown off that rock or Bami's mom gets, you know, it's shot in the, in the woods. Yeah. I mean, I would feel a hundred percent safe in those movies. Right. Yeah. That, that sense of unease or things aren't safe. Um, yeah, because it's true though. You're like, I, you know, I've read stray dogs and, um, there, there's never a sense of any like winking, you know, at the, uh.

[00:09:27] At, at the reader, at the audience. Um, it's, it's played very, uh, sincere there, there, it feels like they're, they're such adorable characters, but it feels like there are absolutely a hundred percent real stakes to it, which is really what keeps you, you know, coming back. So. Yeah, that's, that's the, that's the trick we're trying to, to play over, you know, in an ongoing series now is like coming up.

[00:09:54] Like we, we have a map for what the whole thing is, but it's, I've been telling people it's like a little more improvisational. Um, like we have it planned out a few arcs, but there's room for us to, you know, have an idea and go off in directions. And whereas stray dogs was like very tightly mapped out. Feral is like, Oh, this would be an interesting, you know, we, the last arc we did the cat lady

[00:10:18] arc, the, our cats end up getting thrown into like this hoarder house full of, full of cats. And it's a crazy cat lady's house. And, and sort of like what makes that, what makes those cats in that house different from, uh, like the cats we're meeting in the next arc who, who have like a whole different, uh, history and a whole different, uh, scenario. They're the same, they're basically the same animal, but they, um, just, just by the way

[00:10:47] of like how they were, how they were treated by their people or where they came from. Um, how, how does it make the, their scenarios different? I don't know. We're having a lot of fun coming up with different, different threats and different, um, scenarios that throw the cats in and sort of playing with the idea of like zombie tropes where, you know, uh, you know, you have them be like, we had them getting chased by, you know, men in yellow suits, like the crazies.

[00:11:15] And we had them, you know, they're about to, they're about to get, uh, shacked up in a, in a pet pet co for, for an arc or two. So we, we get to do our Dawn of the dead, you know, like, it's just getting to sort of like play with these little, these ideas of, of the classic zombie, you know, uh, right. I don't want to, you know, yeah. Like zombie literature, like our, our great zombie stories and go on and play with those ideas, but tell them through a cast. It Dawn of the dead. I feel like is, that's one of my favorites.

[00:11:45] I love both the original, you know, George Romero Dawn of the dead. And I, I really enjoy the remake that they did as well. Um, you know, both of them, that idea of being, you know, uh, crafting a mall and, you know, trying to defend it, trying to use the resources at the mall, like all, all those aspects of it, I feel really make for, uh, uh, you know, a great film and yeah.

[00:12:13] To kind of see that that's where the, uh, feral is headed. I think issue, um, I have written down here issue 11 will be out March 26th and then issue 12, uh, at the end of April, April 30th. So, and it's 12 is the end of that second arc. No 10, the trade for, um, the trade for volume two will be out also early March. That that'll be out in the next couple of weeks. Uh, and then the, and then the next issue comes out right after that. Oh, wow.

[00:12:42] So yeah, we're, we're not, we're not letting up. We, we, we fell behind a couple of weeks, uh, around issue nine, but we've, we've caught up now sort of when we were on this tour. So you asked about the tour when we were on this tour, we didn't really, uh, take into account how hard it was going to be to drive across the country and still make the comic while we were doing that. And so we had the, we had the pushback a couple of weeks, but yeah, we, um, the first arc had wrapped up and it came out.

[00:13:12] Um, the fifth issue came out right around Comic-Con time. And then the first trade was coming out in September. And so we just decided, um, well, let's really get behind it and promote it. It was basically like that trade was coming out. Army of darkness forever. Volume one was coming out and local man, uh, was wrapping up and that trade was coming out. So we're just like, this is a time when there's a lot of big things, you know, coming

[00:13:40] out from, from my, like that are my creator own books and some licensed stuff. I think Wolverine was still coming out at that time. Um, and I had finished drawing, like I had finished drawing local man. And so I was just like, well, I'm going to have all this extra time. Let's use up all of that and go drive across the country. And sort of, we had, um, we had scheduled a CGC signing in Florida, uh, for Farrell, where

[00:14:06] it was me and Trish and Tone Rodriguez, who all, uh, who were the co-artists on Farrell. Um, and so we said, well, instead of flying down to CGC, what if we just drove down there and then along the way hit comic stores. And then on the way back, we could drive up the East coast and then, um, and then come back through the Midwest. And so we sort of planned out this route, um, and, and then just sort of without too much thinking. And we planned a little bit, we made t-shirts and we made.

[00:14:36] We did like a tour variant that you could only get at tour stops. And we sort of, you know, we wanted to make it a, a big deal. And, and we just went and hit as many of these shops as we could. We ended up, uh, like officially, I think we did like 45 shops, but with counting like pop-ins and, you know, cause when we get to a town that we hadn't been to before, which was, you know, most of them, we would Google, you know, what are the comic stores here? And we would go hit all the other ones too. And just say, Hey, we're in town for this thing and drop off posters for them and sign

[00:15:05] any books they had laying around. So we hit, you know, over 50 comic shops. Uh, wow. Yeah. And, and it was, uh, it was a real trial. It started off like, Oh, we're having, it's a fun road trip. And then, you know, seven weeks in, we're just like, Tony Rodriguez, uh, who's one of my best friends and who, who works on this book with me. Um, and I were just basically in my car for seven straight weeks and staying in, you know, econo lodges and best Westerns.

[00:15:35] When you mapped it out, did you have, you, you had a, like, I assume you at least had a plan for the shops you were stopping at, like contacted them in advance, like set it all up and, and, and did that. And then you would also check out what other shops were in the area and, and hit those too. So yeah. Wow. Yeah. It was so, I mean, comics are so weird right now. And, you know, like I sort of had, we wrapped up local man because it just, the sales just kept sort of sliding downward, you know?

[00:16:05] And it was hugely like beloved by people who read it and we got nominated for the Eisner and a good, great. It's great. Thank you. Um, but it's like that book doing what it did sales wise really sort of shook me up when it came to Feral because I sort of had this idea of like Feral being like, uh, like Stray Dogs was this shock surprise hit, you know?

[00:16:32] And so Feral's like this, if we can do it right, we were hoping to do it for like 60 issues and have this be like the little, you know, the baby, this is our crown jewel. This is the one that, that, you know, pays the bills for a while. So yeah, sure. Well, we didn't want anything to happen to the baby. And so when, and then the sales are good on it, but when we had this opportunity to go promote it and, and sort of like go face to face with these, with these shops, the ones

[00:16:59] that we knew, and then, then meet new shops, it was sort of like, this seems like a better idea than just like whatever tweeting about it. Or, you know, I already do, you know, as many interviews and podcasts and, you know, like I'm pretty, uh, this will be the best one, but I do a lot of these, you know? Well, thank you. I appreciate that. I've tried everything, but what I've found is, is probably the best way is just getting out there, make them face to face with these retailers and just tell them like, you know,

[00:17:26] it's hard to read a solicit in previews or in the image catalog or whatever. And, and wrap your head around the idea that like, this can be, uh, the new, you know, this can be one that gets people to come back in the shop every month. Like Saga did, or like Buffy did before that, or like, you know? Yeah. Um, so yeah, it's just about trying to, trying to prop up that, that book. And, and, and basically I feel like we did pretty good. I don't know.

[00:17:54] We'll, we'll see a year from now if I'm just like, it was all, none of it was worth it. It was a huge mistake. Well, did you find like, you know, uh, when you would do signings, like both the retailers at the, at the shops, as well as the customers, were they excited? Were they receptive? You know, how did you find most of the, the, the, the folks that you met along, along the way? I mean, every shop's different.

[00:18:18] And so that was really part of the lesson was just like, um, different shops have different, uh, like cultures and different sort of like the way they interact with their fans. There were some, some shops we would go to where we could tell that they knew our books because the fans, uh, like ordered the books or, or, you know, there were some where we could tell that it was like the reader first, right? Like reader generated enthusiasm.

[00:18:45] And then there were some shops we went to where we could tell right away that like everyone in here has read our book because this shop told them to, you know, and that was a really good feeling as well. Cause it's like, Oh, these guys have our back. They know that they can make money on our stuff and like we can work together and sell these books. So yeah, it was every, every shop was different, but part of the reason I did it was I remembered being a kid.

[00:19:11] Um, I grew up in Colorado and there weren't a ton of comp, like it was different, I guess, cause I wanted to make comics. And so it was a little more specific to me, but not a ton of comic book people came through, but I remember every one that did come through and then I would continue to buy their books forever. You know, it was like John Romita jr. Came, J Scott Campbell lived in Denver and came to Colorado Springs and, uh, Paul Chadwick

[00:19:39] and I would buy, you know, today if I was in a comic store and I saw any three of those people doing a new comic, I would be like, Oh, I'll check that out for sure. You know? Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, it's, it's true. Um, by my local shop that I go to right down the street in Wilmington, you know, Delaware, Greg Pock's been there a number of times and like it just having him there, like he was one of the first, you know, creators that I met when I kind of got back into comics and reading

[00:20:08] them and then, you know, um, and it's true. Like it's just that personal connection. And then every time I see he's got a new book out, I'm like, Oh, what's, what's, what's this? Let's check it out. Let's get the first issue. Let's see if we like it. You know, it's just that connection is invaluable. And it's, I mean, it's purely anecdotal, you know, but I've heard from a couple of the shops that I was, that we stopped at, that like they have seen numbers go up since we were

[00:20:35] there, you know, like they were selling X amount of Pharaoh before and now, you know, so many more people have jumped on. So that's, that sort of was the point of it. And what's the return on investment on taking seven weeks and driving across the whole country? You know, how many more comics would I have to sell for that? I don't, I'm not. Right. Haven't, haven't done the math on that. The math probably doesn't work out, but the plan is just to keep this book up and running. Oh, you know, I'm not going to do it every year.

[00:21:03] You know, we're not going to drive around the country every fall to promote this book, but it just seemed like at that time when it was the first volume and it's like, really, this is the time. If ever there was a time to get people behind the book, that was right. Yeah. No, it makes, it makes a lot of sense. Well, well, let me know if you're ever in Wilmington, Delaware, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll reach out to my local shop and put a good word in for you. What's your, what's your shop? What's shot them up? It's the comic book shop. That's it's the comic book shop, Wilmington, Delaware. It's right down the street. I wonder if they're on their list or not.

[00:21:33] I don't know, but yeah. What was I just because I love a good, you know, road trip. I don't think I've ever been on one for, for seven weeks. I think a month was the longest I ever did about that 20 years ago or so. I, I, I love all the funky things you can find to eat on the road where you guys just like all comics all the time, or did you, is there anything in particular, any, any standout sandwiches, any, any weird little, Oh yeah.

[00:22:02] We would try and have interesting food when we were in places that interesting food. We did not lose weight on this trip. That's for sure. But it was interesting. You know, we're driving, it was so much driving food that we would go through like phases, you know, like when we started out, I was having a lot of those, uh, like gummy orange, you know, like those orange slices that are, that are like, uh, like jelly oranges or whatever. Yeah. They're not even from a brand. They're just like gas. Every one of them is a gas station brand.

[00:22:31] I don't know if the FDA qualifies there as a spoon, but they have them in orange and they have them in cherry. And I would go through phases where I would have orange sometimes. And then it would go, you know, like a week would go by and then we'd just be like, perhaps more than oranges, you know? So we would slide it in out of those. We, when we were in Jersey, uh, we went to final boss comics and that shop, um, insisted, well, not insisted. That's not fair. One of the people at the shop was like, you got to go try this pizza place.

[00:23:01] They make a pie that has a mustard in the crust and it's delicious. And we're like, that sounds gross, but you know, like there's gotta be something to it and, uh, not, not for you. Well, it's not for me. We pictured it being like cooked into the crust, you know, like they're, they're rolling up the crust and it's got mustard somehow infused in it. They just squirted like French's mustard onto the pie before they put the sauce. It was a weird situation.

[00:23:30] Definitely, definitely different. That was a weird one. Um, but we, yeah, we had a lot of goods. I mean, you know, we had seafood when we were along the coast and then we had barbecue when we were in, uh, you know, Texas and the South. Nice. Yeah. And then we would, you know, I'm, I'm always looking for like the, the secret out of the way places. So it was like, you know, we're in, uh, Arkansas and I'm like, uh, we found like this, you know,

[00:23:57] a hot lunch place that's inside a gas station where they just made like good poboys or what, you know, just like, that's the fun of road trips for me is finding stuff that you're not going to be able to get when you're, you know, yeah. Oh no, I I'm, I'm the same way. I always go in and, you know, ask like what's where, you know, ask somebody who lives there, like what's good to eat, you know, and then follow it up with no, like not what you tell everybody else. Like, where do you like to eat? You know, not, not Bubba Gump's.

[00:24:26] Like what's the, what's the real? Oh, oh yeah. I mean, I'm sure like nothing against Applebee's and people that like Applebee's, but yeah, I like to try and find those little, you know, out of the way places or just little stuff is always fun. So, well, that's good. I think we did hit all the made, we did like Applebee's and Chili's and all that stuff too, just cause we're on the road for so long. And sometimes you're in towns where they just don't have, you know, like there's no cool

[00:24:55] little out of the way. You know, they're just like, yeah, it's just the Applebee's. I remember one of my road trips I picked, I was, uh, I really like a nice Reuben and that's what I did. Like whatever, every time we stopped at a diner in a different state, that's what I got. And I just like, you know, I ate Reuben's across the country. The Reuben tour. Yeah. Yeah. Basically. Um, well, well to turn back, you know, to comics, you had mentioned army of darkness

[00:25:25] forever and are they re-releasing like volume one and then, and volume two for, for army of darkness forever. Right. Dynamite's doing that. Yeah. The trade for volume one is out and the trade for volume two is solicited. Uh, I'm not sure. With the diamond stuff. I'm not sure what, what exactly the, the outcome of that, well, like how, how it's coming out, but yeah, it's, it's solicited right now. Um, and yeah, the first volume is all the Justin stuff.

[00:25:54] Uh, Justin Greenwood did issues one through six and then pop man did issues seven through 12 and he did a, it did a chunk in 13 too, to like sort of close it out. So yeah, it'll be two volumes. And, uh, I don't know if you finished reading it, but it's like a full story, you know, like it goes all the way up to the end and it sort of brings you to a place where you can jump and read any other army of darkness comics after that. But if you want to just have that be like the one, the sequel to the movies that you,

[00:26:23] that, that you keep and that you read, they can sort of serve as like a one, you know, like a, a single serving, you know, series, uh, which was what we were trying to do. Cause it was the, the 30th anniversary, just trying to make something special that sort of stands on its own. So yeah, that, um, that wrapped up last year and then the second volume will be out soon. Yeah. I mean, I just, uh, I, I, I think I'm just the last issue behind, but I mean, I, I just,

[00:26:52] I really felt it was just a really like when we talked about it, you know, what you were, you and Justin were talking about setting out to do, it really was, uh, I mean, action packed, a lot of fun. I felt it was really true to like the spirit of it without being, you know, something that felt like a derivative or just like an IP situation. Hey, we have this license. Let's just make this thing.

[00:27:18] Like it, it, it, it really stood out, um, on its own and I just thought it was great. Yeah. We've, uh, I really love that book. We love making it. And, uh, it's, it's weird because it is like this IP, like telling somebody like, Oh, you should check out this, this 13 issue army of darkness thing that I did is it feels so different than like pitching them on my creator own stuff. Or even if it's like a Marvel thing, you know, like you don't think of, uh, an army of darkness

[00:27:46] comic as being like one of some of these better books, but I do think it's like, it really sort of stands out. So yeah, I'm glad you dug it. I hope, I hope people continue to find it now that it's in trade. And then eventually at some point we're going to try and do a, like a cool hardcover that just looks like the baby Necronomicon, you know, like a, like it's a book. Oh, nice. That's pretty cool.

[00:28:10] Um, and so I know, uh, you're starting off the, our Marvel March because of the thing, which I do want to talk about, but then I did want to get into a little bit about uncanny Valley with, with boom studios. I think, uh, just so listeners know, um, I think you're, I saw like, I think issue nine. Yeah. They're uncanny Valley right there. Uh, for, for those looking at the, watching the video, uh, I think issue nine is solicited to come out April 23rd.

[00:28:41] Yeah. Um, and it's you and Dave Wachter. Um, so kind of for any, for any listeners that don't know, uh, kind of tell me what the premise of, of, of uncanny Valley. Yeah. It's a, it's a coming of age story. It's sort of a road trip adventure story, but it's about a boy, um, who's sort of trying to figure out, he doesn't feel like he fits in trying to figure out what his place is in and is, is in, in the world.

[00:29:10] Um, he's got a single mom and he doesn't know much about where he's from or his family. And in the first issue we meet, um, and he beats for the first time, his grandpa, who's a actual cartoon character. And so this kid finds out that the reason that he feels like he doesn't fit in is because he like actually is part cartoon. Like he does it. Something's a little bit off. And so it's sort of like Percy Jackson, but with, uh, you know, Looney tunes instead of Greek God, you know? Yeah. That's funny.

[00:29:39] My daughter, my oldest, who's 12 went through all the, the Rick Riard and Percy Jackson stuff. She, she's asked me to, um, she asked me to read it. Um, which is, I was happy to do, uh, because, uh, every time I recommend something to her, she has no interest in it, but I thought, oh, well, she's, she's, she's doing that to me. And I'm not going to say like, you won't read this. I said, oh no, I'll do it. So I just finished the, but the audio book of, uh, the third Percy Jackson, I think, uh, that Titans curse.

[00:30:09] So I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm well up on the, uh, on the Percy Jackson reference. Uh, I, I feel like with uncanny Valley there, you're kind of tiptoeing around maybe, or, or playing in all these different things that I kind of like really like, you know, because instantly I think of kind of like a who frame Roger rabbit, which is just one of my favorite movies. Absolutely love it.

[00:30:37] And, um, I, I always kind of enjoy when you have a mix of, uh, I know it's, this is not a movie, it's not live action, but when you have like reality meeting the kind of like cartoon world and, um, a lot of the characters you have in there, it feels like you're kind of getting close to things we know, but you're, it's really creating your, your, your own stuff. Like you, you, it's really a nice job.

[00:31:05] I mean, both in the writing and in the artwork to feel like we know what these things are, but they're, they're wholly their, their own creation. And yeah, the, the idea, we usually see these two things mixing, but I can't think of anything quite like this where it's not just the character has discovered this cartoon world. It's like, Oh, he's kind of like a real part of it. I just think it's, I think it's wild. Yeah.

[00:31:33] I've, I loved who frame Roger rabbit and like, it's part of the, the reason why this, this story like felt so important to me when I, when I, when I sort of came up, came up with it, um, was when I saw who frame Roger rabbit, I was, I was just obsessed with that combination of live action and animation. And I just thought like, after I saw it, I was just like, okay, well that's just how movies will be now.

[00:32:00] You know, like every movie can have characters and, you know, like, uh, and then it went rarely happened. If ever, I was just like, well, this, how come nobody's, you know, space jam had cartoons and real people together, but I didn't really care about sports that much. So I was like, Oh, this is okay. But then it would be like, you know, cool world a little bit. And it would just sort of happen here and there. Um, and, but I was just such a sucker for it that like, even in commercials or whatever, I would just be like, it's how they're doing it.

[00:32:30] So this having this idea and it was sort of, it sort of came from, um, I was rereading planetary and the idea of, um, this world where, uh, all the sort of like pulp stuff and sci-fi stuff that we read and that like we nerd out about actually exists in this sort of in our world, but it's just sort of like kept under the, under the surface.

[00:32:55] Um, I thought like, that's what if that was cartoons and what if the history of cartoons sort of like mirrored our own history? And what if, you know, you know, if we went back to prehistoric times, it would be like Flintstones and Gertie, the dinosaur. And so just like thinking about that really got, got me going. But then I, and then the part that where I really locked in where I was like, Oh, I like this is what if it's a story about a family and it's a story about a single mom and her

[00:33:25] son and they're all they have is each other. And then her father shows back up in the picture and they're estranged for some reason, like just being able to sort of like pull that apart and play with that. Um, and then do that with the cartoon. I thought like that felt really, um, for like fertile ground to mess with. Um, and then when, uh, you know, when Dave Wachter agreed to do it and, uh, he's a buddy

[00:33:51] of mine, we'd worked together probably 20 years ago on like one of both of our first books. Uh, like a one shot thing. And we sort of had led parallel careers to a certain extent. Um, like we had the same editor, the guy that hired me to draw my little pony for years was the same guy that hired Dave to draw Ninja turtles for years. Okay. And, uh, so he had sort of gone that direction. Then he was starting to do Marvel stuff when I was starting to do image stuff.

[00:34:19] And then, um, and then this sort of thing I had, I had talked to him about it years before, before boom was in the picture or anything where I said, I kind of have this idea where it's real people and cartoons. And would you be interested in just drawing the real people part? And then we'd get like a cartoony artist to do the other stuff. And he was like, you want me to do this project or just draw the boring parts? That sounds, that sounds cool. I don't want to do that.

[00:34:46] And then when I was talking to boom about this, I was like, so can we get two people to do it or how do we do it? And they were like, two people sounds tough. And I said, well, let me ask Dave if he can just do both, you know? And so I asked him and he was like, yeah, of course I would love to. And then we started working on it. He started drawing it and I was like, it's incredible. I didn't know you could draw cartoons like this. And he was like, yeah, I didn't know either. I just was bluffing. Well, I guess it paid off, you know?

[00:35:15] You know, thinking about these things that we're talking about with stray dogs, with feral and uncanny valley, in terms of your writing, you know, different writers have different strengths, different either stories that they're attracted to or, you know, stories they want to tell. I mean, you do sincerity, you know, almost a kind of like earnestness very well.

[00:35:43] But in these worlds where it's so easy to, you know, because of the premise or even the artwork, it's so easy to kind of take it into, you know, more like hyperbole or maybe get too saccharine with it or whatever it might be. Like, is that something you even think about consciously when you're writing it? Is it something that comes natural to you, something that you developed?

[00:36:11] Or do you just reject my comment? No, I like this sort of. I'm trying to think of. I'm trying to think of a word that's not milieu, you know, but like this, this cartoony, but sincere or like cartoons played for real. Like.

[00:36:38] Vane that I've been working in, I feel like I have a lot to say about it, and I think a lot of it comes from being like drawing like that for my whole life, you know, like I drew my little pony comics for 10 years. I drew Star Wars Adventures comics and Rick and Morty like I'm a cartoon artist and I can draw in a more realistic style, like local man is not cartoony. But if you have me sit down and just start sketching and doodling, like that's how I draw. And and working in that part of comics for as long as I did,

[00:37:08] there's a bit of. I want to say it's like a chip on my shoulder, but it is where you want, like people use cartoony as like a pejorative, right? They'd say like, like they'll just be like, ah, that artist is a little cartoony. I can't really, you know, get into it or what, you know, like it's it's you feel like you're sort of. Less than sometimes. And and so I'm always trying to like show what you can actually do with this,

[00:37:36] that that is more than, you know, where it's like. Or if it's if stray dogs or if feral or if I'm like, if I'm Kenny Valley is just about a boy and a regular old man who's his grandpa, like it doesn't hit as hard as if is when you can have these expressive characters and these, you know, these dogs and cats that you can identify with because they're anthropomorphized where you can sort of like you put emotion onto them and you put,

[00:38:05] you know, like real sort of like pathos and they've got their own stuff going interpersonal stuff going on. But you you care more because they're drawn this way like the Scott McCloud understanding comics thing, right? Where you can you can identify more with a smiley face than you can with like a very rendered drawing of a person because it because the more graphic it is and the more simplistic it is, the easier it is to put yourself into that container. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:38:36] So, yeah, I guess I don't know if that's a good answer to your question, but it is sort of it's something that I'm definitely conscious of and something that I have to sort of check the levels on sometimes because I will. I feel like I don't have and my ex-wife would probably tell you the same thing. Like I don't have the same emotional.

[00:39:02] Like I'm not I don't have a lot of feelings, you know, and so or at least like outwardly, you know, like inside I have a lot going on, but like I'm surprised that the you know, the person that I've I've read, you know, your work to say like, you know, I doesn't have feelings. It's just you're you express them differently. Exactly. I put them into the work and and sometimes like watching the reaction of people like I'll watch reviews of the book sometimes or I'll talk to people in comic

[00:39:32] shops and I'll think I'm doing like a seven. And then I see these people's faces. I'm like, oh, shit, I did like a 12, you know, like I need to we're trying to do this for the long run. I'm not trying to put people through this, you know, like at that level for that time. So I'm really I'm always thinking about it. I'm always thinking about how because these animals are so cute or because the cartoon characters around Candy Valley are so relatable and cute that you can't

[00:40:02] hit them as hard as you could. I mean, you don't want to hit any dogs in any media, but but I'm saying like you can't put them through as much as you could put like a realistically drawn character or like a superhero or whatever, because because people do really care about, you know, they're looking at these characters and they're seeing their cats or their dogs. Sure. Sure. So, yeah, it is a lot of sort of like like tuning the dial, making sure that you're

[00:40:28] not doing too much, but also being like holding that in your back pocket and being like that you never know when the page turn could come. And we do the most, you know, like where it gets just goes haywire. Yeah. I know that makes a lot. I mean, I think that makes, you know, a lot of sense. Um, and well, I mean, I'm, I'm glad maybe, um, you're not glad in terms of being able to keep your, you're not express your feelings except through your work.

[00:40:58] But I think, uh, you know, your, your work, um, certainly doesn't, uh, suffer for it. I mean, I think it's, you've turned in. So, I mean, just look at the stuff, you know, at least in terms of the past two years that you've had out and then to kind of turn to the thing, uh, coming out in May, um, with Justin Mason. Yeah.

[00:41:23] So I, you're going to be the first of like the Marvel March episodes for this, but I've already interviewed, um, uh, Ryan North, uh, I, I've, I said this a lot on the podcast. The listeners are probably tired of hearing it, but you know, I, I, I have not written, ever read a lot of Marvel comics. No reason. Just never got around to it. You're a DC guy or what was your... Yeah, but I was always more of a DC guy.

[00:41:52] And then when I got back into comics, it was DC and then a lot of indie stuff. And I just never kind of made my way through the Marvel universe. Uh, when I was a kid, I collected the Marvel trading cards. I still have a complete set, I think of 92 somewhere in my room. I almost have a full set of 91, but, um, you got those Jim Lee X-Men cards. What? You got the Jim Lee X-Men cards. I don't think I have those, but, uh, cards to me. That's what you get. Those are. I know.

[00:42:20] Those are, but I recently rediscovered in my, oh, I say recently, a few years ago in my basement, I rediscovered an old, I think it was a return of the Jedi lunchbox. And I opened it up filled with, like, with, uh, with, um, not sports cards because I was an indoor kid. It was Marvel. Uh, this was the late eighties, early nineties, cause it was Marvel Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle cards. The movie? Uh, I think so.

[00:42:47] And the cartoons, uh, Gremlins, Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Al cards, uh, Terminator, year two cards. Yeah, it was a real, an A-team. Yeah. It was a real, real hodgepodge of, uh, of, uh, a real treasure trove of, of, of, of nerdy, of nerdy. Um, so, uh, you know, so, but, but my point was, uh, I haven't read a lot of Marvel.

[00:43:17] I, the first Fantastic Four comic I ever read was, I read volume one of, uh, that Ryan North. Oh, wow. Has, has written, uh, I, you know, in preparation for the interview and I loved it and absolutely loved the thing. And I mean, from, you know, just knowing comics, I was familiar with the character. I, I think I saw a couple of the Fantastic Four movies, but I'd never really like read the thing or, or Ben Grimm on the page.

[00:43:46] And I, I just really love, um, that volume one. Uh, and I can't wait to read the, the rest of it. It's waiting for me on, I think on my hoopla. Um, so I was excited to see that you were kind of going to be able to, were going to do your take on the thing with this five issue limited series. And I understand it's a little different because it's like, I mean, everything I've read about it, it seems like it's, you know, the thing against the Marvel universe.

[00:44:17] So kind of like, uh, is, is that what we're, you know? Yes. Sort of. It's definitely a street level story. It's not, it's not cosmic, like the Fantastic Four stuff. It's sort of more, uh, Yancey street, like the thing, you know, like he's, he's just, uh, banging around, uh, uh, Manhattan and getting into, um, getting into trouble out there. It's basically, I was pitching stories to the editor.

[00:44:45] The editor had reached out and asked me to pitch things stories. And so I pitched them a few, um, and he gave me, um, sort of like hints, you know, like here's what they, here's what they like for the thing, or here's what CB likes for superhero stories. Here's what he doesn't like. And so I was just sort of like trying to craft a story that was like, that would do the stuff that I like about the thing, but also sort of like fit within those, you know, like I didn't want to work extra.

[00:45:13] I didn't want to do like, well, I know you hate this, but what about if it was like this? No, I just was like, I'll do what they like. And one of the things they said that they like is like, it's easy to get through stuff. And this is a tip for, if you're out there and you're aspiring. For anyone pitching. If you're 44 minutes into this, here's your tip. Uh, Marvel likes stuff that has, uh, like a lot of fighting and a lot of like superhero

[00:45:38] action and, and stuff like that, you know, like, especially, um, in a thing like this where they want it to be like a standalone, um, you know, there's no way to just say something's evergreen without it coming out, but like aim for it to be something that somebody can just pick up and read, whether it's the day or whether it's 20 years from now or five years from now or whatever. Um, and so I was, and I was thought about what I liked about the thing.

[00:46:04] And, you know, before Wolverine, the thing was like the guy at Marvel, like he's the guy everybody loves. He's a, he's a bruiser, you know, he would show up and he sort of had that sort of like gruff, lovable, you know, he's like your, you know, your uncle's buddy that tells you dirty jokes or, you know, the non-threatening version of that. Yeah. Whatever the not creepy version of that is. Um, but yeah, it's just more mature.

[00:46:33] Like I've, I've, I have seen some of the, you know, when he's in this coat and the hat, like they do that kind of almost the war, you know, free Bogart. Yeah. And so, yeah, I just figured out a story where we could have Ben Grimm be street level, be not, you know, out in outer space and just figured out a reason why he would have to fight a bunch of people that I hadn't seen him fight before. And he's fought, you know, everybody, you know, he was in secret wars.

[00:47:00] He was, there was Marvel team up, you know, um, he's had, or two in one shit. I'm going to get shit hammered by the, by the bronze age heads. Uh, but he had his own team up book where he, where he teamed up with other heroes and fought super villains every month. And, and, and he's been in, you know, thousands of issues of the fantastic four. So he's fought so many people. So I just sort of thought I went and looked through all my official handbooks and I flipped

[00:47:28] through like all my favorite fantastic four stuff. And I just thought about like, who would it be fun to see the thing fight? And also they sort of set it in, uh, to them. I'm probably giving away too much, but to them, um, evergreen fantastic four period is they sort of think about it as like this amorphous John Byrne fantastic four time. Okay.

[00:47:54] So like not the, not as far back as like the sixties Kirby and Stanley stuff, but you know, like late seventies, early seventies, early eighties. Yeah. Um, and so that's sort of like the, the time that we put it in. When I think about that, I think about like, all right, well, what else is going on at that time in Marvel? It's like, that's the golden era of Marvel. It's like Simon's and Thor time. And it's, uh, you know, John Byrne X-Men time. And it's Frank Miller daredevil daredevil time.

[00:48:23] And all of those stories, they always sort of have their villains, um, siloed into that's a Spider-Man villain, or that's an X-Men villain. Or, so I just thought about like, well, what's a, let's figure out a story where that doesn't matter. And anybody, nobody, you know, you won't know who's coming on the next page. Anybody can come through and just the thing can have to clobber them. Uh, and so that's sort of what we figured out.

[00:48:49] But then like, I try to do in my other stuff, also figure out a way to make it, to give it heart and to tell you something new about Ben and sort of, um, uh, make you think of like my favorite comics are the ones superhero comics specifically are the ones where you read them and then they tell you something that makes you think about it every time it happens in another comic. Like if we can do something here with like, we're specifically like we've got a clobbering

[00:49:18] time bit where if I can, if this breaks through and if it's, you know, if enough people read it or even if nobody reads it, if one person reads it and then they read another fantastic war comic, you know, a month later, the like hopefully clobbering time means something a little bit different to them. Okay. That's, that's the sort of lofty, the hope for it. And I'm not saying a lot about the plot of it, but it is just, you know, the, a street level thing stories.

[00:49:45] He gets, um, somebody from his old, from, from before he was a rocky monster from him, from when he was growing up from Yancey street, uh, comes, comes around and, and he sort of gets wrapped up into a mystery with that person. And, uh, it's just them sort of like making their way across Manhattan, going to different areas and running into different supervillains. And then at a certain point, like all the supervillains in the Marvel universe are sort

[00:50:13] of out to get, so that's, uh, that's sort of the pitch. And, and like you said, Justin Mason's drawing it. It was originally, uh, going to be drawn by Leonard Kirk. And then he had, he ran into some, uh, health trouble. Um, uh, but, uh, Justin took over and then the first issue actually drew over Leonard's, uh, layouts. So it was really interesting to, to watch that and now he's drawn the second issue and

[00:50:40] sort of seeing how, like, it's fascinating to me as somebody who also draws comics to watch, you know, how somebody works over somebody else's layouts and what their own layouts look like. It's just, uh, it's been really fun to watch some, especially somebody so talented and energetic, um, as Justin just, uh, just super talented. And he has like great thing, action punches and, and, uh, Leonard as well.

[00:51:04] Like Leonard just could draw what looked like just perfect thing poses. And, and, and, you know, like he would draw a punch and you're just like, that's what the thing looks like when he punches. Incredible. It's definitely different than, uh, when I'm making, you know, feral or stray dogs or local man, or, you know, I'm so involved in those, uh, like on, on feral and stray dogs, I do thumbnails local man. I draw half of it myself.

[00:51:34] And so it's like, there's, there's not a lot of it that shows up in my inbox and I get to go like, Oh, this is a, this is a surprise, you know, Sealy puts in his pages of local man. That, that would be nice like that. Or when Dave sends in uncanny Valley pages, I get that same sort of charge, but this is a whole, I mean, these are superhero artists, you know, it's a whole different thing, you know, like they turn in pages and I'm just like, son of a gun. This is a guy just sent me a superhero comic. Pretty cool.

[00:52:03] Well, um, I'm excited for it, especially I can't get enough of, uh, of, of the thing right now. I, I, I put something on, on blue sky, like, let me know your favorite, you know, what, what other things story should I read? So I have like some homework ahead of me, but, um, dance lot, uh, thing series from the early aughts is real good. I bet you dig it.

[00:52:27] Somebody mentioned that, uh, somebody else whose opinion I, I, I trust told me to try and track down. And they were, it was very specific. It was the Marvel two in one, the thing like number seven. Okay. Uh, that that's when, you know, it's going to be good when they, when they've been able to zero in on that one. I'm going to go read that tonight. Yeah.

[00:52:53] So I got to go, I got to go track down Marvel two in one, the thing, uh, that, that, that the thing was in, um, hopefully we're making one of those with this series. I really am trying to, I mean, the other thing about it is like in writing it, like at first I was just like, why are they asking me to write the thing? You know, I'm happily, you know, I'm not going to say no, but then when I'm writing it, I was like, Oh, right.

[00:53:18] I'm writing it and he talks not dip, not exactly like me, but close enough that I'm like, Oh, okay. I get it. And then also he just sort of is like, you know, I don't, I don't have a great self-esteem, you know, like I think anybody that's ever felt like a little bit, like they don't like the way their body is or they don't, you know, like the thing is all that, but he also the same way that I feel like I do. He just sort of like cramps all that inside and gets up and still goes out and does what

[00:53:47] he's supposed to do and still can, you know, like it isn't like a, uh, he, he's not always a pleasure, but he does his best to, to always come through for people. And that's sort of like the heart of the thing is that like, he's, he's always there for his friends and has been for, especially for his family, but he's also got all this inner turmoil stuff that, you know, cause he thinks he looks like a monster, which I'm not that bad, but I think anybody, everybody can, everybody's got something about themselves that they don't like. Oh, sure.

[00:54:14] I think what I, what I really liked, uh, like in reading, um, Ryan North had written, um, is he, it's someone that it feels like could be, you know, very easily feel like less than when you're the rest of your team, you know, is who they are is, is Johnny and Sue and, and Reed.

[00:54:41] Um, and even though he has all this internal stuff going on about himself or how he looks, there's, there's this like real kind of let's, you know, let's figure this out. Let's get it done. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do my part. I'm, you know, and, um, yeah. And he's just, he's, I quickly risen to the top of my, my favorite superhero characters and that volume.

[00:55:11] So I'm, I'm very, I'm excited for this, especially to see you write it. Uh, Justin Mason, um, you know, I wish Leonard Kirk, uh, speedy, you know, recovery for whatever health issues he's having. Um, be a Justin Mason who just is coming off the Sentinels, which I thought was really good with Alex Pacnadell. So, um, very excited to see what he does with it. And, uh, yeah, I think that'll be out May 21st, but, uh, I'm going to add it to my pull list.

[00:55:38] So listeners, you know, I suggest you do the same and, um, yeah, Tony, thank you so much. I, I, I didn't want to keep you this long. I know we both had a long, a long day today. So, um, but I really appreciate it. Uh, before we go, I always got to shout out my brother, Bobby, the cryptic creator corners, number one, most dedicated fan. Uh, I think, I think Bobby has collected all the, um, I think the variant cover for army of darkness forever.

[00:56:08] He's gotten every issue. So he's very happy with that. He absolutely loves it. Uh, but yeah. So listeners, if you haven't read stray dogs, you got to start there. You can get caught up on feral local man. I know I've, uh, at least two volumes are out in trade now. Three, uh, all three are out now. Okay. All three are out local man. And, you know, you're working on that one with, uh, uh, Tim Seeley. Yeah. Uh, it's absolutely fantastic. Thank you.

[00:56:37] As we talked about army of darkness forever, uncanny valley by boom studios. Um, yeah. And, uh, and look for the thing and, you know, I'll, I'll put links in the show notes to your website and, you know, social media, but, uh, Tony, thank you so much. Um, and, uh, you know, if you're, if you're ever in, in and around Delaware and want to sign some comics, you just let me know. Okay. You bet. Thanks for having me on again. It's great catching up. All right. Uh, thank you listeners.

[00:57:08] Thank you, Tony. And I will, uh, see you next time. This is Byron O'Neill, one of your hosts of the cryptid creator corner brought to you by comic book Yeti. We hope you've enjoyed this episode of our podcast. Please rate review, subscribe all that good stuff. It lets us know how we're doing and more importantly, how we can improve. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode of the cryptid creator corner, maybe you would enjoy our sister podcast into the comics.

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