Gerry Duggan Interview - Timing/Luck

[00:00:00] Your ears do not deceive you. You have just entered the Cryptid Creator Corner brought to you by your friends at Comic Book Yeti. So without further ado, let's get on to the interview.

[00:00:40] We also got a request for this week's episode from our friend Jeff Morris who is riding out the hurricane in Florida. Safety be with you brother, I hope you and yours are safe today.

[00:00:50] You ever been to a martial arts tournament like this?

[00:00:53] When I was a kid, there was a used bookstore in town. I begged my mom to drop me off all the time. They had a loose stack of comics that I used to thumb through searching for secret gold.

[00:01:02] One day, I came across Daredevil 189. That's that Frank Miller cover that's iconic with DD flying through the air and a hail of arrows. The book was a complete snobber knocker throwdown with the hand and Stick sacrifices himself to save Matt at the end.

[00:01:15] Ever since that moment, I have loved martial arts comic books. So when fellow Yeti Alex Breen reached out about his Kickstarter project from within, I was excited to find out about the next one.

[00:01:24] It's a 240 page martial arts revenge graphic novel about a slave fighting his way through a deadly tournament where the rules shift according to the whims of, you guessed it, a tyrannical emperor full of high impact fight sequences.

[00:01:37] It's sure to delight any fan of action focused fiction. Artist Renzo Podesta kills the Donner. See what I did there? And the whole project is already complete. So the hardest part, the one that makes you wait is already done.

[00:01:49] Bounce on over to Kickstarter and search for from within. I'll drop a link in the show notes to make it easy for you. Make sure to check it out.

[00:01:59] Y'all, Jimmy, the chaos goblin strikes again. I should have known better than to mention I was working on my DC universe meets Ravenloft hybrid D&D campaign on social media. My bad.

[00:02:10] He goes and tags a bunch of comics creators we know. And now I have to get it in gear and whip this campaign into shape so we can start playing.

[00:02:17] Another friend chimes in, are you going to make maps? It's fair to say it's been a while since I put something together. So I guess question mark?

[00:02:25] It was then that I discovered Arkham Forge. If you don't know who Arkham Forge is, they have everything you need to make your TTRPG more fun and immersive.

[00:02:34] Allowing you to build, play and export animated maps, including in-person Fog of War capability that lets your players interact with maps as the adventure unfolds while you, the DM, get the full picture.

[00:02:47] Now I'm set to easily build high-res animated maps, saving myself precious time and significantly adding nuance to our campaign. That's a win every day in my book.

[00:02:56] Check them out at arkhamforge.com and use the discount code YETI5 to get $5 off. I'll drop a link in the show notes for you. And big thanks to Arkham Forge for partnering with our show.

[00:03:07] I think I'm going to make Jimmy play a goblin warlock just to get even.

[00:03:12] This is Byron O'Neill, your host for today's episode of the Cryptid Creator Corner.

[00:03:16] I'm pumped about this show because it gives me a first on the podcast to be able to talk about the transaction of two visual mediums that I absolutely love, photography and comics.

[00:03:26] And I could not ask for a better guest to discuss all that who's hanging out with me today than Jerry Duggan.

[00:03:31] And of course he's written Deadpool, Uncanny Avengers, The Hulk and the X-Men.

[00:03:36] But I feel so lucky because we get to talk all about his new photography book coming out, Timing Luck, dropping right before the holidays if you're looking for a gift.

[00:03:44] And hint, which contains over 200 pages covering two decades of writing and green rooms, city streets around the world and documenting part of his own journey during COVID as a non-clinical volunteer.

[00:03:55] We'll get into a little more of that and everything else he's got going on because there's so much dropping for the new year.

[00:04:01] But Jerry, welcome to the show.

[00:04:03] Thank you so much for taking the time to come on and talk with me about this shared love of comics and photography.

[00:04:09] Thank you.

[00:04:10] I need to make sure you're my hype man wherever I go.

[00:04:13] I try.

[00:04:15] Well, I want to give everybody a little bit of background about me.

[00:04:18] I think it's kind of material to the photography topic.

[00:04:20] I was a professional photographer for over a decade, making it work, doing the gallery shows, teaching landscape photography workshops, having my work grace, you know, hotels around the world and and becoming a Getty photographer on top of that.

[00:04:35] But it's all creative journeys do humble beginnings.

[00:04:38] So when I was a kid, I got my first camera.

[00:04:41] It was a Minolta film camera.

[00:04:43] I can't remember the model number, but I saved up the 70 bucks to buy it before we went on a cross-country summer trip.

[00:04:48] My first to California via Slough of National.

[00:04:51] Yeah, yes.

[00:04:52] National Parks, white panel wagon, the Osmobile Custom Cruiser in the 80s, if you remember those with the faux wood grain there.

[00:05:01] It felt like a land yacht.

[00:05:03] But where did your own photographic journey begin?

[00:05:07] Actually, it's funny.

[00:05:12] There are pictures of me holding this camera that I just love cameras.

[00:05:18] They're a cool gadget.

[00:05:20] My father was drafted into service in Vietnam.

[00:05:25] He came back with a camera that he bought off another GI who wanted to sell it for money to go on R&R.

[00:05:33] So I think the sum of money was 50 bucks.

[00:05:37] So he came back with a Minolta with a 50 millimeter on the front of it.

[00:05:41] And that was my first camera.

[00:05:44] My first film camera, obviously, because I'm Gen X.

[00:05:49] We were not digital in those days.

[00:05:53] I took it to Emerson where I continued shooting it.

[00:05:58] But I was very lucky in the school system I grew up in in Ridgewood, New Jersey.

[00:06:03] My middle school had a darkroom and so did my high school.

[00:06:07] And we were shooting.

[00:06:10] So I got okay at shooting and printing.

[00:06:13] I really liked my time in the darkroom.

[00:06:17] And eventually, you know, college kind of wiped out a couple of hobbies, photography and comics.

[00:06:25] I basically stopped around the same time because I was I was very lucky.

[00:06:30] My folks were helping me with tuition.

[00:06:32] But there's never enough money when you're at a school like Emerson.

[00:06:36] You know, I was paying rent.

[00:06:38] But I missed it.

[00:06:40] I really did.

[00:06:41] And for me, photography, it sort of was a almost a prosthesis.

[00:06:48] I wanted to draw comic books and I couldn't.

[00:06:51] I wasn't that talented.

[00:06:53] I could not get my hand to pull out of what I saw in my head.

[00:06:59] But the camera really scratched that itch.

[00:07:02] And I'll fast forward a number of years.

[00:07:04] I got out to Los Angeles.

[00:07:08] I didn't have a camera with me.

[00:07:10] I regretted that.

[00:07:11] I really wished that I did.

[00:07:13] But I did fix that eventually.

[00:07:15] And around the time that my son was born, I realized I was recording these great moments.

[00:07:24] But with the worst possible camera in the world, you know, these phone camera pictures.

[00:07:29] You're grateful to have a phone camera in the moment.

[00:07:32] And it's not really I don't know that I've ever printed a phone camera.

[00:07:38] I guess they're getting that good now that you could.

[00:07:41] But there's such a deliberate thing that happens when you have a camera in your hand that you are trying to line up a shot that you're trying to collaborate with the subject and the light.

[00:07:54] And I just I appreciated that.

[00:07:56] It's a little like gambling.

[00:07:57] I don't know how you feel about it.

[00:07:59] By the way, I consider myself very much an amateur photographer.

[00:08:05] I like what I like.

[00:08:07] I do what I do.

[00:08:09] I think I have found some interesting shots to share over the years.

[00:08:14] But it was never a thing that was to me anything more than fun.

[00:08:18] And as my comics career grew and what a privilege it is to make comic books, photography became more important as something that I just did for love that I wasn't trying to necessarily make a living at.

[00:08:33] Because that is kind of the sacrifice of when you start to do something that you love for a living.

[00:08:40] You know, my brain can't.

[00:08:42] I can still enjoy comics, obviously.

[00:08:44] But there's always a part of me that is like, who lettered this?

[00:08:47] Or who, you know, if I'm liking it, like, oh, look at these colors.

[00:08:51] Or, oh, look, what a neat trick they did structurally.

[00:08:54] Like, your brain just doesn't turn off.

[00:08:58] Yeah.

[00:08:59] No.

[00:08:59] No, absolutely.

[00:09:01] And I feel that completely.

[00:09:03] And most photographers that I know would rather be shooting than editing.

[00:09:08] I'm absolutely the rare breed, though, that probably likes editing a little bit more.

[00:09:12] But for me, it's kind of the raw image is the dough and editing bakes your cake.

[00:09:17] So timing luck is a byproduct of COVID for you, kind of allowing you to slow down and evaluate all this stuff.

[00:09:24] Yeah.

[00:09:25] We, you know, in the world where I was on the road at least a week out of the month, usually either a marble retreat or go to a convention somewhere and be privileged enough to have a hotel room that was on someone else's dime.

[00:09:44] I bring a camera.

[00:09:45] I walk around and shoot.

[00:09:46] COVID, obviously, the world stopped spinning.

[00:09:50] And it was an opportunity to look back finally at what I had.

[00:09:55] And boy, was I grateful for that opportunity because I think not only did I find things that I really enjoyed that I maybe was seeing for just a second or third time.

[00:10:08] But I also thought I had a lot of safety in my backup, and that was not true anymore.

[00:10:18] Some of these photos were on hard drives that I had to go to eBay to get the old cords to be able to even access that material.

[00:10:29] And obviously, if you're saving things on one drive, you're courting disaster anyway.

[00:10:34] So I was able to basically organize it, put it into a Dropbox, assess what I had, and then start tinkering.

[00:10:43] And I'm not a great digital tinkerer.

[00:10:47] I really enjoyed burning and dodging in the darkroom back in the day, but it's still the same concept.

[00:10:53] You're still still file and error, you know, switching values and so forth.

[00:10:57] And I like saving photos, like a photo that maybe isn't quite perfect, but then figuring out a way to present it so that it is.

[00:11:10] And I have a funny relationship with Instagram because it's one of the places I find that is the most frustrating to share photos

[00:11:22] because it is always trying to, you know, cram it into that square format.

[00:11:28] Oh, I hate it.

[00:11:28] Or you have to make other accommodations where you're going into another app and making the aspect ratio the one that you want to present the work in,

[00:11:38] and then you're losing fidelity.

[00:11:42] There's not a great way anymore, I don't think, to share the photos.

[00:11:45] So I was very grateful to have the book.

[00:11:47] I think I've said this before, but it's true.

[00:11:50] I'm pleased that for these 20 or so years I can hand a book to my son and say,

[00:11:59] hey, these are the ones that I really thought were neat, and maybe there's a little bit of writing about why.

[00:12:04] And now you don't have to worry about, you know, finding a USB-A connector lightning to a Thunderbolt anymore to, like, look in there.

[00:12:16] And so I was grateful.

[00:12:18] I was grateful for the time.

[00:12:19] In a lot of ways, too, COVID, you know, as awful as it was, there was an opportunity there.

[00:12:27] I watched a lot of movies with my wife and son that I wouldn't have had an opportunity for.

[00:12:32] You know, hopefully we didn't damage the kids too much.

[00:12:35] Yeah, we did the same thing.

[00:12:37] We went through Star Trek Next Gen, and we did all the Star Treks during COVID,

[00:12:43] and it was such an awesome time to spend that experience with our son, who's now a teen.

[00:12:49] And so it was definitely amazing.

[00:12:52] That's really cool.

[00:12:54] Yeah, it looks like you didn't take up what everybody else did either, which was an obsession for houseplants.

[00:12:58] So, you know, at least it's productive.

[00:13:02] Yeah, I would be a—I'd have to have a taste for murder.

[00:13:07] I don't have a green thumb.

[00:13:08] My wife is really good at it.

[00:13:10] She got very good at gardening during COVID.

[00:13:12] Did your son get the photo bug, too?

[00:13:17] Are you guys sharing cameras?

[00:13:19] No.

[00:13:19] Is that not so—

[00:13:20] Not really.

[00:13:21] It had always been something from the jump that I actually did with my father-in-law.

[00:13:26] Oh, cool.

[00:13:28] Yeah, and when it all started, you know, a similar journey, got out of it for years.

[00:13:34] I can't even tell you how much I lament not having a camera with me with all those years on the road,

[00:13:39] because I would have had some amazing shit.

[00:13:42] Oh.

[00:13:42] But I didn't.

[00:13:44] And it was a way, actually, to disconnect.

[00:13:46] I—you have to be completely familiar with what those long hours are like and just wanting to—to unplug.

[00:13:54] And that was what, you know, the camera did for me, too.

[00:13:57] So, similar journeys in that regard.

[00:13:59] But you're trying to put this book together.

[00:14:01] You're trying to do the damn thing, and now you have to synthesize something that's actually coherent.

[00:14:07] Because, you know, you're making a book.

[00:14:09] They need to make sense.

[00:14:10] It's got to have things like a theme.

[00:14:12] It's got to have artsy-fartsy messaging.

[00:14:14] So, how did you start?

[00:14:17] You know, I basically came up with sort of the buckets of what I thought I had.

[00:14:23] And that was a lot of the behind-the-scenes in comic books,

[00:14:29] a lot of what I would call behind-the-curtain in Hollywood,

[00:14:33] and then a lot of the street stuff that I actually think is, like, the coolest of it all.

[00:14:40] And I think the photos get better as the book goes on because I'm mostly in chronological order.

[00:14:48] And so, I think hopefully I got better.

[00:14:51] But then I also know the lenses got better, too.

[00:14:54] Yeah.

[00:14:54] I started most of the book in the front part.

[00:14:59] It's funny.

[00:15:00] I guess this is a now hip camera.

[00:15:03] But that camera I bought when my son was born, so I was not just using a camera phone.

[00:15:12] It was the Fuji X100.

[00:15:14] Okay.

[00:15:15] So, flat lens 35 that I really enjoyed using.

[00:15:19] Like, boy, a little bit wider than that 50 that I have been using previously.

[00:15:24] And then, though, like a Q was where I think most of the book really shines.

[00:15:33] That's a 28-millimeter lens, a really wide lens, really perfect for street photography and zone shooting.

[00:15:42] And I think I got good at that camera.

[00:15:47] And so, I ended up with those three buckets.

[00:15:51] And then, I was working with my designer at Artworks, a guy named Blue, who's really wonderful.

[00:15:57] If you're thinking about self-publishing a photo book, you should check out Artworks in Los Angeles.

[00:16:05] He also did Matt Oswalt's photo book in designing it.

[00:16:10] And then, you know, we need to go out and get our crowdfunding sorted.

[00:16:17] But he's a one-stop shop for that sort of thing.

[00:16:20] And if you're selling prints, you can do that there.

[00:16:22] But I worked with him.

[00:16:23] And he said, you know, this is your story.

[00:16:25] And I said, well, I'm not sure that I'm ready for an autobiography.

[00:16:29] And he goes, well, I think that it really is your story.

[00:16:34] And I said, oh, yeah, I totally do get it.

[00:16:36] It is the story of how I went from reading Spider-Man comics to, you know, making comics both in the Marvel Universe and at Image.

[00:16:49] And, you know, I've said this.

[00:16:52] I think it's true.

[00:16:54] I hope I am your favorite comic book creator.

[00:16:56] If I'm not, I certainly think I've probably photographed some of them over the years.

[00:17:02] And I got good at being a fly on the wall.

[00:17:05] You know, I was not Bruce Gilden.

[00:17:07] You know, I wasn't running up and popping the flash.

[00:17:10] And a lot of the times some of the folks see photos and they're like, oh, I didn't know you were shooting.

[00:17:17] And I was like, I was trying not to let you know that I was shooting.

[00:17:21] And the only guy that I don't seem to be able to get candid is Chip.

[00:17:28] He seems to have a complete, total situational awareness.

[00:17:32] And he knows exactly when my camera is in my hand.

[00:17:36] So all of these photos, he looks very like he just quantum leaped into the picture somehow.

[00:17:42] And everyone else is ignoring me.

[00:17:44] I think also I've been really, you know, I don't share stuff that I don't have the okay for.

[00:17:51] Sure.

[00:17:53] Sure.

[00:17:53] I, for the most part, for, for the folks that I know and love who are in the book, that's really ends up being true.

[00:18:00] I'm pretty fearless about street stuff.

[00:18:04] I'm going to take your picture and I'm never going to, I'll apologize if, but I've had only really had very limited interactions when someone.

[00:18:16] Yeah.

[00:18:17] Yeah.

[00:18:18] I don't think I've ever really had an instance where anybody really got mad, but street is.

[00:18:23] Is not my jam.

[00:18:24] I'm, I'm not a particularly good person at it.

[00:18:26] So.

[00:18:26] Well, I, I, you know, everyone has their strengths.

[00:18:29] I'm, I'm also the guy that's trying not to let you know that I'm shooting in the street.

[00:18:35] I actually, I thought the one time I might have my biggest problem as I was shooting someone who had fallen asleep on the subway and they were leading against someone else.

[00:18:46] And then a gentleman on the other side of the train was like, is this guy a creeper?

[00:18:52] And it was very clear, but like for a moment, his reaction, I was like, I guess I'm about to take a picture of me getting punched.

[00:19:00] Like, I don't, I don't know.

[00:19:02] You just never know.

[00:19:03] There's so much out there that, um, you know, even without a camera around your neck, you, uh, you, you may have a bad encounter, especially on public transit.

[00:19:14] When a lot of the stuff is where I'm shooting.

[00:19:17] I love shooting the New York subway.

[00:19:19] Um, nothing compares to the Japanese subway and the laws are different there.

[00:19:24] I think if they want to make a stink and ask you to delete it, they absolutely can.

[00:19:30] Um, so you, if you're into that sort of thing, or you think you want to get into that sort of thing, it definitely pays to have a little bit of awareness of what the laws are, where you are.

[00:19:41] And, and what you can get away with and what you want to try.

[00:19:47] Well, Japan, you're just going to be shooting the top of people's heads anyway.

[00:19:50] And you're still, I mean, that look, the thing that was so funny about Japan was, um, how cool.

[00:19:59] I, uh, how cool everyone is.

[00:20:02] And it's funny.

[00:20:03] My son asked about your son and photography.

[00:20:07] My son got really into photography.

[00:20:09] His friends, they're a little bit more analog.

[00:20:13] I think they, um, maybe wised up in ways that like we didn't, they saw us Facebooking and tweeting and Instagramming everything.

[00:20:22] They're a little bit more reserved and he's into analog photography.

[00:20:28] So he has these super cool cameras.

[00:20:31] He took a medium format Pentax to Japan and had really outclassed me, you know, like, uh, he, like he's, he's earned it.

[00:20:39] Like he, you know, I said, boy, this is an investment.

[00:20:42] I hope you understand like what comes along with this.

[00:20:45] I expect you to be shooting and trying to get better.

[00:20:48] And, um, we're excited because Pasadena city college may open up their dark room again.

[00:20:54] You know, there's such interest, um, now that, that, that may be coming back.

[00:20:59] So, um, I would love, uh, for him to get dark room experience.

[00:21:04] I would love to have a dark room again.

[00:21:05] That would be incredible.

[00:21:06] Yeah.

[00:21:07] I, I miss being able to play around in them and it's in terms of the fine art market that,

[00:21:12] that is where it's at.

[00:21:13] Like you, you have to make a dark room print because you know, Jake Lee is just, uh, the

[00:21:21] real artistic depth of the field is in developing your own and not, not just, not just hit it,

[00:21:29] making the printer print it.

[00:21:30] Yep.

[00:21:31] I think that's right.

[00:21:32] And I totally get it.

[00:21:34] You know, I, I, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've,

[00:21:36] a lot of my book, um, a lot of the street stuff I convert to black and white and I'm

[00:21:41] always looking, uh, boy, I wish I could, uh, get into a dark room and really see what

[00:21:47] this looks like printed.

[00:21:48] And, you know, I, there's a, a, a, a camera that I'm really excited about, uh, coming out.

[00:21:57] Um, hopefully this next in 2025.

[00:22:01] Um, I was such a big fan of Jeff Brink's photography.

[00:22:06] Yeah.

[00:22:07] I don't know if you've ever seen his wide Lux shots.

[00:22:10] Yeah.

[00:22:10] Uh, and I was, when I was at Emerson in Boston, I, um, was a extra on a movie that, uh, it's

[00:22:20] the only movie that he did with his father, with Lloyd.

[00:22:23] He, it's about a bomb squad technician.

[00:22:27] It's called blown away.

[00:22:29] And I got to talk to, uh, Jeff on the sub lawn of MIT.

[00:22:36] Um, I was like a student, I was playing a student or something, or I was, uh, I did two things

[00:22:42] on the movie.

[00:22:42] One, I was a boom operator in Copley Plaza.

[00:22:45] And then I think I was just doing background stuff at MIT.

[00:22:49] And, uh, I was like, I never seen that camera before.

[00:22:53] I was like, what's that camera?

[00:22:54] And he showed me a shot.

[00:22:56] It's actually funny.

[00:22:57] I was trying to get to his archivist to go.

[00:23:00] I don't know if I'm, I might be in these pictures from MIT.

[00:23:04] Like I would love to know if I'm in one of his wide Lux shots because we stood around in

[00:23:09] between takes talking about this super cool camera.

[00:23:12] And then years later, it's a very comic con story.

[00:23:15] I got into an elevator at the Bayfront and the whole way down, I was in with, with Jeff

[00:23:21] and I said, uh, I won't talk your ear off.

[00:23:24] Just want to say, I got to talk to you once about the wide Lux and how cool that is.

[00:23:28] And like, it really is like, it's a really unique camera with a, a drum that it spins.

[00:23:36] It's a, it's a 35 millimeter, um, print, but, uh, it's this wonderful widescreen image.

[00:23:44] And so, uh, the way that he documents his collaborations, I think that's pretty interesting.

[00:23:50] Like he really did.

[00:23:52] He'd made these crew gifts for many years and, um, I bought one or two, uh, that ended up on

[00:23:59] eBay and so forth.

[00:24:00] And even though I do a totally different thing and I'm not really on set to collaborate the

[00:24:05] way he is, it gave me sort of the confidence to go, you know what?

[00:24:11] Yeah.

[00:24:12] This isn't a picture of Josh Brolin, but like, this is a really cool picture of a comic book

[00:24:16] creator that at a moment in time when I can provide the context of like why that photo

[00:24:22] is interesting at that moment and what was happening there, I think is cool.

[00:24:26] Um, you know, it's, uh, we don't have many curtains left in comic books because, you

[00:24:32] know, we used to just have wizard once a month and now it's like everything else.

[00:24:36] We have this almost barrage of information, but what you really don't ever get are the,

[00:24:43] how we got there, that process of like, Oh, you're seeing somebody have the idea in that

[00:24:49] moment.

[00:24:49] And that's, that's what I think is so cool.

[00:24:53] Well, you mentioned a little bit, but the street photography tradition in the U S has

[00:24:58] a lot of depth to it.

[00:25:00] So when you were starting out, who were some of your influences?

[00:25:03] Um, there's a, a photographer named, uh, Richard Sandler.

[00:25:09] Uh, he, uh, he's got a book called eyes of the city and boy, that book is really cool.

[00:25:16] Um, he's such a great, um, street guy.

[00:25:21] He, he, I was also doing some new stuff back in the day, like Reagan at the conventions

[00:25:26] and so forth.

[00:25:27] But I think his most interesting stuff is that seventies and eighties.

[00:25:32] And also I'm like, look, I was born in Manhattan.

[00:25:35] And then when summer of Sam went down, my parents were like, yeah, let's try the suburbs

[00:25:40] and went to New Jersey.

[00:25:43] And so I was always fascinated with Manhattan.

[00:25:48] I saw so much of my Manhattan was outside of the car window, going to visit relatives,

[00:25:54] gone to the city, gone to, and going, Oh, this is the place that I want to be.

[00:26:00] And eventually pretty quickly I was, we were sneaking in to go to comic cons and so forth.

[00:26:05] And I so wish I had had a camera for those days, but I still, I will never not be nostalgic

[00:26:12] for that eighties, New York.

[00:26:14] Um, and boy, Richard Sandler captured so much of it.

[00:26:17] In fact, he has a movie on criterion, I think this month, um, called the gods of times square.

[00:26:23] So he put the camera down and picked up a VHS, uh, camcorder and ended up really documenting

[00:26:30] an interesting period in, in times square.

[00:26:33] There was also a, uh, another New York photographer named, um, Marvin, Marvin Newman, uh, whose work

[00:26:40] I found, um, just it's, it's like this decadent color.

[00:26:47] Like it's the, the grain of this color film that he was shooting on.

[00:26:52] Like there's a wonderful tash in the book.

[00:26:54] It's an oversized book.

[00:26:55] And I just can like fall into the city lights.

[00:26:59] Um, I'm also, uh, not, uh, ashamed to admit, uh, I, I fell in love with, uh, Vivian Maier.

[00:27:07] Yeah.

[00:27:08] What she ended up doing and, um, hoarding away, uh, it was a fascinating, uh, body of work.

[00:27:18] I think she, I didn't ever want any of it shared, you know, I think she was probably suffering

[00:27:25] some mental illness, but obviously there is that, that gets hitched a lot to what artists

[00:27:31] do.

[00:27:32] Um, it would be, so these are all starbers.

[00:27:35] And then the other book that I have over there, um, Liam Wong, uh, has wonderful, uh, shots

[00:27:43] of, of cities in Asia, there's a, um, book called, uh, there's a photographer named Eli

[00:27:52] Reed.

[00:27:53] Uh, he, he is a wonderful, um, African American photographer that, uh, photographs a lot of,

[00:28:01] um, a lot of the black experience.

[00:28:04] And then this is going to sound crazy, but I'm just going to say it.

[00:28:08] Uh, Dennis Hopper's photography book is incredible.

[00:28:12] Oh, it's really good.

[00:28:13] I love that book.

[00:28:14] It's so, yeah, I mean, it's funny.

[00:28:16] I was talking to my son.

[00:28:18] I was like, I wonder if Dennis Hopper was shooting on the set of aquelts now as he was covered in

[00:28:23] camera, you know, he's a hell of a photographer.

[00:28:26] I don't think I've ever seen those foot, those photos if they, if they even exist.

[00:28:32] But if you know his story, I think he destroyed a lot of photos too.

[00:28:37] And speaking of not being all, all that together, it sounds like whatever exists,

[00:28:42] exists because his friends went in there and took them out.

[00:28:47] Yeah.

[00:28:48] Yeah.

[00:28:49] Have you watched the, the finding Vivian mirror documentary?

[00:28:52] I did.

[00:28:53] Yeah.

[00:28:53] I recently did that.

[00:28:55] I think that was on criterion to the criteria channel.

[00:28:58] So I'm plugging away for them.

[00:29:00] Yeah.

[00:29:00] I think, um, you know, it's funny.

[00:29:06] I can't like, I, this is a wild guess, but I feel like she was a nanny to make the photography

[00:29:16] easier.

[00:29:17] And they touch on this a little bit, but really what it comes down to is when you look at her

[00:29:22] life.

[00:29:23] And for those of you that don't know really briefly, a nanny, uh, with a camera that has

[00:29:29] all is a hoarder has, uh, six figures worth of photos in a storage vault and she loses it

[00:29:38] right before she dies.

[00:29:40] And so the collection is found.

[00:29:41] The collection is brought into the world.

[00:29:44] But you know, when you have a kid that you're dragging along in your side and then you get

[00:29:49] right in someone's face, cause she really got in people's face and take a shot.

[00:29:54] Nobody's going to really get angry at you as you got a kid in tow.

[00:29:57] Now I felt like she had a, almost a bulletproof vest for yelling.

[00:30:01] When you have a, like young kids with you who seem to think or seem to indicate that they

[00:30:07] were sort of along for the ride and not really wanting to be there.

[00:30:11] They would rather be doing kit stuff.

[00:30:13] Instead, they were going street photography.

[00:30:15] Well, and shooting with a rolly flex too, makes a massive difference.

[00:30:19] It's just not looking like you're taking photos.

[00:30:22] It's totally, he was a stealthy killer.

[00:30:25] You're right.

[00:30:26] Yeah.

[00:30:27] Yeah.

[00:30:27] That's for those of you that don't know you look down and, and you might, it looks like

[00:30:32] you may be like staring at your navel.

[00:30:35] Yep.

[00:30:36] Yeah.

[00:30:37] I mean, and in looking down, people are just going to assume they'll just walk on by,

[00:30:41] you know, that New York, you're, you're going to blend in like the sidewalk if you're,

[00:30:46] if your head is down and yeah, you just, it's, it's great camouflage.

[00:30:50] It's the perfect New York camera.

[00:30:52] I'm doing a little bit more with, um, zone photography or zone focusing, you know, so I

[00:30:58] can sort of be no looking shots because I know roughly that what will be in focus and

[00:31:04] what won't.

[00:31:05] Um, I did inherit, um, a camera recently from, uh, my sister.

[00:31:12] Uh, she, uh, I have it here.

[00:31:17] She's, she had several cameras, but the one that I'm shooting now is an Asahi Pentax with

[00:31:25] a, uh, seven element, uh, and this is film.

[00:31:28] Um, uh, some, this is, I'm back film, uh, the super Takamar, uh, 1.4, uh, 50.

[00:31:38] And I don't know if I'm going to see if, oh yeah, that's, that's showing up.

[00:31:42] Can you see how yellow that is?

[00:31:44] Oh yeah.

[00:31:45] Yeah.

[00:31:45] It's one of those irradiated lenses.

[00:31:47] So it's got thorium coating on, uh, I'll leave the back element.

[00:31:51] The one closest to the eyeball as I shove it in the face to focus.

[00:31:55] We can blast this out, I think with UV, but I wanted to roll a film.

[00:32:01] I put them, I turned it into Sammy's camera and we'll see what it's like.

[00:32:06] If it works, it's almost like having a yellow filter.

[00:32:09] You know, I might just run black and white through it and we'll just see if that will

[00:32:13] be the, the, the character of the camera.

[00:32:18] Actually, my introduction camera back into it, my father-in-law, I inherited it from him.

[00:32:24] This was that Pentax model.

[00:32:25] So he was actually, yeah, he, he went to, um, our work graduated from RIT and then, and

[00:32:33] then worked for Eastman Kodak for, for years until he opened his own, own business and then

[00:32:39] started selling machining parts around the world.

[00:32:42] So.

[00:32:43] Oh, wow.

[00:32:43] Wow.

[00:32:45] There's a gentleman here in my neck of the woods in the Crescenta Valley, uh, who has a shop

[00:32:51] called camera max.

[00:32:52] Cause I don't know if you've ever heard of it.

[00:32:54] You know, one of the last guys that's like, you know, putting on the, uh, the glasses and

[00:33:00] doing a lot of the work you walk in there and there's packages coming from all over the

[00:33:04] world of people who are looking to have their cameras fixed or refurbished in a way.

[00:33:10] And, you know, we're losing a lot of institutional knowledge, right?

[00:33:13] Yeah.

[00:33:13] Because we are moving into digital and we have moved into digital and analog really, I think

[00:33:21] needs to be resuscitated in a lot of ways.

[00:33:23] If we want this to stick around and there is, there's the new Raleigh 35.

[00:33:29] Did you see that?

[00:33:29] The autofocus this week?

[00:33:31] Like it feels like we're, we're getting it back, but, um, you know, a lot of these old

[00:33:37] cameras are really works in progress.

[00:33:39] Like old automobiles, they're going to need constant TLC and I don't know how to do it.

[00:33:46] I don't have the patience to do it to be honest with you.

[00:33:50] Yeah.

[00:33:51] All right.

[00:33:52] Let's take a quick break.

[00:34:01] After a string of unexplained disappearances in the Southern parts of the United States,

[00:34:05] retired detective Clint searches for his white trash brother.

[00:34:09] While searching for him, he ends up being abducted by aliens.

[00:34:13] He is now in the arena for big guns, stupid rednecks at intergalactic cable's newest hit

[00:34:19] show, which puts him and other humans in laser gun gladiatorial combat.

[00:34:24] And his brother is the reigning champion with 27 kills.

[00:34:28] That's the premise for a new book from band of barns, big guns, stupid rednecks.

[00:34:34] I got a chance to see an advanced preview of this book and being from the South, honestly,

[00:34:38] I was a bit skeptical going in, but they won me over and nothing is more powerful than an

[00:34:42] initially skeptic convert in my book.

[00:34:44] In Jimmy's words, big guns, stupid rednecks is many things, but it isn't subtle.

[00:34:49] It tells you exactly what it is upfront.

[00:34:51] Then it delivers with a great premise, fantastic art and a whole mess of fun.

[00:34:56] I had a great time reading big guns, stupid rednecks.

[00:34:58] And what I thought was going to be an indictment of redneck culture quickly showed it was actually a

[00:35:03] love letter, a family mystery, brother pitted against brother, aliens fighting for profit

[00:35:08] in a big arena.

[00:35:09] This truly has it all.

[00:35:11] Issue one is out already, but you can still pick up a copy on the band of bards website

[00:35:14] and current issues are available via your previews or lunar order form,

[00:35:18] or just ask your LCS.

[00:35:20] Don't miss it.

[00:35:21] Let's get back to the show.

[00:35:22] My favorite shot from the book has Mark Hamill and Patton Oswalt in it, which I would love

[00:35:27] to use in a teaching application as to why certain rules will apply to certain shooting

[00:35:32] environments, because you could absolutely never pull off that highlight.

[00:35:36] That's over on the far right edge in a landscape shot.

[00:35:39] So you can't get away with that.

[00:35:40] But I'm just taking what I get there.

[00:35:43] You know what I mean?

[00:35:44] I was like, yeah, I want to hold out for a moment.

[00:35:46] It's just Patton looking back at me.

[00:35:49] He had brought Mark up in this wonderful way.

[00:35:53] And then Mark got up and was just feeling all the love from this room.

[00:35:58] I think when you're Mark Hamill, you are always on.

[00:36:03] I've been in several rooms with him now, and everyone wants to let a person like that have

[00:36:11] their moment of quiet.

[00:36:13] But you're also aware that you might not ever get a moment to be with Luke Skywalker again.

[00:36:20] So it feels like there's always, there's never a bubble, you know, for somebody like that.

[00:36:27] And I'm always just keenly aware, like, boy, everything to me felt like I was intruding upon him.

[00:36:38] But he knows it.

[00:36:39] His heart is so good that he's so kind.

[00:36:42] He wants you to have that moment because it's going to be gone.

[00:36:45] And then he and his wife are going to tear out of there in the car.

[00:36:49] That moment was fun.

[00:36:51] That was a really fun night.

[00:36:52] It was actually funny.

[00:36:53] Most of those Hollywood experiences were for writing with Patton and his brother, Matt.

[00:37:01] That one actually was Jonah Ray was hosting and Patton was just presenting.

[00:37:07] Okay.

[00:37:08] It was just really neat.

[00:37:10] And like just the lighting worked out great where they each kind of found their light.

[00:37:15] I'm glad you like that one because it's, it's unorthodox, but.

[00:37:19] Well, I love it because it's all about his impish expression.

[00:37:24] And so what that photograph does so well is it creates a conversation.

[00:37:28] So Mark's addressing the crowd.

[00:37:31] Patton is looking at the viewer, right?

[00:37:34] So you're, it feels like you're having an intimate moment and you're, you're transported into that space.

[00:37:40] So yeah, I love that shot.

[00:37:42] That, that was, that's cool.

[00:37:43] That's one of the things that I was trying to do is to go, Hey, here's a, here's something that you, here's a peek into that or a peek into how we cooked Krakoa when we were working on, um, uh, on the X-Men.

[00:38:00] Um, yeah, that one's neat.

[00:38:02] I'm, I'm glad you like it.

[00:38:04] Yeah.

[00:38:04] Well, I mean, I come from a theatrical lighting background.

[00:38:07] I was at theatrical lighting designer for years.

[00:38:09] Yeah.

[00:38:10] And, and, and I've already said, like, I'm notoriously bad about shooting people.

[00:38:13] And I think that's actually because I'm such a lighting perfectionist.

[00:38:17] So I can't let that go.

[00:38:18] Right.

[00:38:19] And, and, and there's such a contrived space anyway.

[00:38:23] And I can dismiss that when I'm shooting in nature, right?

[00:38:25] You cannot control that.

[00:38:27] So at least I've found my comfort zone there.

[00:38:30] How did that street journalistic space just become your comfort zone?

[00:38:34] Uh, it's funny.

[00:38:37] I think the thing that would, um, that I just tried to do is to be myself and to, um, we're always trying to make each other laugh.

[00:38:57] A lot of us.

[00:38:59] So, so many of the things I think that I'll do is, you know, I, I'll think of a joke and then try to fire off the picture and get the laugh.

[00:39:08] Um, some of these with some of my friends and there's, um, maybe not as many instances in this book of that sort of playfulness, but I'd love being the fly on the wall.

[00:39:22] Like there are, there are super hard laughs in this book that from patent riffing something and then me getting the reaction, you know, and, um, there's, um, a comfort level.

[00:39:37] I think if you're comfortable with your subjects, then you're going to hopefully get something that will be, um, a little bit more interesting or honest.

[00:39:47] Okay.

[00:39:48] Yeah.

[00:39:49] Uh, and I think also there is a, um, uh, like, uh, orders of protection.

[00:40:00] Like everyone knows I'm not out to embarrass anyone.

[00:40:03] And really that's honestly, funnily why the book even exists because for so long I was taking pictures and not sharing them.

[00:40:14] And really the Vivian Maier thing kind of made me go like, well, I'm no Vivian Maier, but I also don't want to like not share.

[00:40:24] Uh, I, it forced me to confront the question of why was I doing, you know, did I move my comic book collecting into picture collecting?

[00:40:33] You know, um, what is it about this thing that I want to bring out?

[00:40:40] Well, you may not be Vivian, but Declan might be, because I think you said your favorite shot in the book is basically a reflection shot that, that he took.

[00:40:49] And, and out of Vivian's work, it is those self portraits, those reflective shots like that are the most stunning.

[00:40:57] I, I, I completely agree.

[00:40:59] Um, you know, I, um, I found, um, I found that one to be a remarkable, uh, photo.

[00:41:06] Um, uh, it was, I watched him line up the shot, uh, and I didn't know what he was doing.

[00:41:12] And then I realized what he was doing and backed off so he could finish lining up his shot.

[00:41:19] Um, you know, I, I wished I'd thought of it, but I'm not smart enough.

[00:41:23] Um, and I'm super glad that my, my son has that eye.

[00:41:27] I don't know what he'll end up doing.

[00:41:30] He is, um, in a cinematography class now.

[00:41:33] And, and again, very privileged to be able to like have him in that now at such a young age.

[00:41:39] Um, it is something that I think he wants to pursue.

[00:41:43] So even if he doesn't, um, I think this, the ability to try and generate images that you want to share is a really good energy and space to have your brain on.

[00:41:57] Yeah.

[00:41:57] Um, it does nourish the other parts of, of the brain and in terms of storytelling, how simple you can make things sometimes.

[00:42:07] Yeah.

[00:42:07] Well, I don't know how much printing you've done prior to timing luck, but I'm curious about how creating the project and putting it, everything on the paper has changed your kind of approach to photography.

[00:42:18] You know, it, it makes a difference.

[00:42:19] It did for me anyway, to, to actually start printing my work and start evaluating.

[00:42:23] Cause you're not just editing something on a screen.

[00:42:26] And as you say, cataloging it.

[00:42:28] And yeah, it's funny because it does make it feel like there's something of permanence, right?

[00:42:35] Like the, if I can mess around with a lot of stuff in Lightroom, but if I don't share it, does it really exist?

[00:42:42] And so you, you are putting yourself out there a little bit.

[00:42:46] And, um, it, it does that like relationship that you'll have with it is bolstered or diminished by the reaction that you get.

[00:42:58] Right.

[00:42:58] Like I, I have photos that I love that, um, like that one that, that you picked on because of that, um, sort of the wonderful child, like.

[00:43:08] That grand of Patton being on stage with, with a, uh, hero that we shared going back to maybe our first memories of being in a movie, you know, that like, what a magical moment.

[00:43:20] And there's joy on that chase.

[00:43:22] And, and like, that's why we love that.

[00:43:25] Right.

[00:43:25] It's a, it's a, it's a shot.

[00:43:27] I'll tell you too, um, the thing that I'm grateful for personally is there's like family photos, uh, of some, uh, folks and some folks maybe that aren't even here anymore that I was able to have for people to go.

[00:43:42] Hey, here's some stuff that like, maybe you saw once, or I texted you.

[00:43:46] Here's a Dropbox folder with some IRAs and knowing that it brings joy of going, Oh my God, I forgot this.

[00:43:53] Or the, you know, we do time travel through these photos and they, and I, there's a, of just a visceral thing that we, we, that happens to us when, when we see these photos that, that means something to us because of the, with the subject.

[00:44:10] And, and like that, that brings joy to that's the only level of joy of, of being able to, to make someone happy like that is, is, uh, is its own reward.

[00:44:23] Yeah.

[00:44:24] It's the beauty of photography.

[00:44:25] Like my favorite shot that I've ever taken, I've never been able to put and work into a collection because it just doesn't fit.

[00:44:31] It's a picture of boots.

[00:44:33] And we were on vacation, my wife and I in the black forest eating of all things, black forest cake, very on the nose.

[00:44:39] Uh, but there was a bar in there and there was a, just a pair of old worn out boots that were hanging on a hook.

[00:44:48] And I, every time I see this picture, I'm just sucked in because I've done so much commercial work and it's not bad, right?

[00:44:55] It is easily digestible.

[00:44:57] It goes on a hotel wall.

[00:44:58] Fine.

[00:44:58] Right.

[00:44:59] That's what you have to do to make a living.

[00:45:01] But that particular picture will tell a hundred stories to me every time.

[00:45:07] I can't wait to see it.

[00:45:09] Yeah.

[00:45:10] Yeah.

[00:45:10] Who is that person?

[00:45:11] Where, where did they walk in these boots?

[00:45:13] You know, were they in the German military?

[00:45:15] Like given the time, you know, just all kinds of stuff like that.

[00:45:19] So, you know, don't diminish the commercial work because, you know, a lot of the times they're hiring the best, right?

[00:45:28] Like they can bet money is green.

[00:45:30] Anybody wants to, who wouldn't want to be an amazing commercial photographer?

[00:45:35] So, you know, some of my most, some of my friends that make, you know, that are doing style shoots or so far.

[00:45:47] Those are all like, there's a level of art there that is, is real.

[00:45:53] So, you know, I, there's a skill there that I don't have.

[00:45:59] I'm, you say you want to control the lighting.

[00:46:04] I'm a guy that like never really learned how to control anything.

[00:46:08] And I admire that he can.

[00:46:10] That's why the, the street stuff.

[00:46:12] So like when I see something in a train station, you know, like the lights in Hoboken coming into this hundred year old train station, I'd rather stake it out, you know, and sort of, it looks like I'm wasting my time waiting for a subject to show up.

[00:46:28] I think I'm planning a follow-up and I found this brass door on the street in Manhattan to an old art deco building.

[00:46:38] And I was like, Oh my God, that looks like a canvas.

[00:46:40] And so I just spent like 45 minutes or an hour there shooting the streets, walking in front of it.

[00:46:50] And then having the ability to go, Hey, here's a series, really cool photos of New Yorkers, either trying to ignore me, ignoring me, not knowing that I was there or being angry that I was interrupting them is really cool.

[00:47:05] You know, that that's, that's the thing.

[00:47:07] I think you need a lot of time, right.

[00:47:10] To be a photographer, either time to shoot, time to edit.

[00:47:14] Um, you know, taking that photo is a split second or a fraction of a second, but how you get there may be hours, days, or even longer.

[00:47:23] And what you do in that after is hours, days, or, you know, it's this whole other lifetime.

[00:47:30] Um, and if you get it right, you get it right.

[00:47:33] And then it becomes this sort of a mortal thing.

[00:47:36] It's, it's a very weird medium because in lots of other storytelling mediums, you start out with your premise.

[00:47:44] And I, I mean, I can't speak for everybody, but the, the way my best work has become, it is evolved out of something that I did not intend to start off with.

[00:47:54] So working at the Pike speak center in Colorado Springs as the technical director there, when I could steal 15 minutes, I go down to the train tracks and just start shooting graffiti.

[00:48:04] Right.

[00:48:04] And I was like, okay.

[00:48:05] That's so cool.

[00:48:06] Well, I have a huge, uh, soft spot in my heart for that because of the eighties.

[00:48:11] Um, like I, I wanted to break into that building in downtown LA.

[00:48:15] I don't know if you saw the skyscraper that has been tagged every floor.

[00:48:18] Yeah.

[00:48:18] Like that to me is high art.

[00:48:20] Like that is, I hope we never change it.

[00:48:23] I hope we never lose it.

[00:48:24] I know we will, but I totally get it.

[00:48:26] I mean, you could do a whole, a whole book of, of railway.

[00:48:31] Oh, for sure.

[00:48:32] Yeah.

[00:48:33] Yeah.

[00:48:33] I mean that concept, that concept.

[00:48:35] Okay.

[00:48:36] Well, that concept actually morphed into the train car workers will put dots on the back of trains just to indicate, okay, this one links up, this one doesn't or whatever.

[00:48:47] So what I did is I created a portfolio called spheres and I have a background in anthropology.

[00:48:52] So I'm always looking at mythology and connections.

[00:48:55] So what that ended up being over time, seven, eight years to really solidify what it would be was a statement connecting graffiti back to cave painting, you know, and, and, and these timeless memories.

[00:49:11] Like, um, the, the wave of, uh, is it Casa Gala?

[00:49:15] The, the famous wood, wood block print.

[00:49:17] I may make it the Japanese city wrong there, but, but stuff like that.

[00:49:22] So mirroring.

[00:49:24] Yeah.

[00:49:25] Yeah.

[00:49:25] Mirroring those kinds of things.

[00:49:26] So yeah, my work tends to be, uh, not spontaneous, but, um, unanticipated anyway, when I managed to put something together.

[00:49:37] And are you still, do you, have you embraced digital or are you, you still on some?

[00:49:44] Um, no, no, no.

[00:49:46] Digital just became, it was, it was, it was apologized to me.

[00:49:51] I'm, I'm also mostly.

[00:49:53] No, it became default because of commercial reasons.

[00:49:56] And I could make the money putting hotel decor artwork together because it was a niche that there weren't that many people in.

[00:50:04] And I found it and I ran with it.

[00:50:06] Um, so that was really great.

[00:50:08] And I was able to create and differentiate.

[00:50:10] And I wanted to do this from the beginning, fine art and commercial work, you know, and commercial work was commercial work.

[00:50:17] And I didn't care, you know, fine art.

[00:50:18] I was everything I was holding for myself.

[00:50:21] And I'm like, no, this is sacred.

[00:50:23] This is mine.

[00:50:24] And I'm going to present it in the way I want.

[00:50:27] So, yeah.

[00:50:29] Yeah.

[00:50:31] Well, there, there are a lot of artistic parallels between photography and comics.

[00:50:36] So how has your love of photography changed your approach to thinking as a comics writer?

[00:50:43] It's always a collaboration for me because I'm not a writer artist.

[00:50:48] And I always tell the writer artists, you know, the first thing I do is I say, if you don't need me, don't have me around.

[00:50:55] You're going to be better off doing exactly heading towards your own North star.

[00:51:01] So I don't, I can't say none of the artists that I work with will ever go out and write on their own.

[00:51:07] Uh, they may decide they've had enough of the Jerry dotting business and I'll stick.

[00:51:11] Um, but for the most part, I enjoy the, the collaboration right now.

[00:51:18] I'm, um, the wind is at our back on a book called falling in love on the path to hell.

[00:51:23] We get a fourth print out now.

[00:51:25] And I really don't know authorship.

[00:51:27] I try to give all of my artists authorship to go.

[00:51:31] Here's a script.

[00:51:33] I'm telling you a story.

[00:51:35] You go now and tell the story to our, our readers.

[00:51:40] To our audience.

[00:51:42] And then I'll come back around and I'll try and shrink my words down, do more with less or cut my work entirely.

[00:51:50] Punch it up, raise it to your level.

[00:51:52] And we'll have a comic book.

[00:51:54] It's the same given play.

[00:51:57] I think, um, in what we find, you know, or what we control as, uh, as, as photographers, you know, it's, we're taking what we can get, you know, at that moment in front of us.

[00:52:10] And maybe we can manipulate it.

[00:52:12] Maybe we can't.

[00:52:14] Um, I want to make sure I'm getting his name right.

[00:52:17] Did you ever hear about this, um, uh, photographer?

[00:52:22] I want to say his name is Arthur Tress.

[00:52:24] You know, Arthur?

[00:52:25] Yeah.

[00:52:26] I've heard of it.

[00:52:27] Yeah.

[00:52:27] So Arthur was this fascinating photographer that he sat children down and asked them what their absolute worst nightmare was.

[00:52:43] And these are real nightmares that these kids had and that he would recreate them.

[00:52:48] They're staged photographs, but they're so chilling and haunting.

[00:52:53] And it's, it's like, it hurts to look at some of them, but they're breathtaking photos.

[00:52:58] He would end up actually doing, having a whole other separate careers as a, as a queer artist.

[00:53:04] He would later come out and then document, um, a lot of, um, the, the queer culture and, and the early, early eighties, I think.

[00:53:13] Um, but those, there's, there's two books and I want to, I, I will figure out the name so we can, we can put it, but it's anyway, that's the sort of thing that like, I sort of, if I had a next level, uh, sort of thing that I would go and, uh, and, and attempt next it's to do, um, like heavily sort of stage.

[00:53:39] Photography because I've never done it.

[00:53:42] You know, I've, I've never, um, uh, there's also, um, uh, she's a commercial photographer here.

[00:53:48] Um, Robin and Vance Swank, uh, uh, she's in Los Angeles, super talented.

[00:53:55] I think she's at Vance Swank.

[00:53:57] Like she was a photographer that I remember coming up who always had her camera in her hand at Largo.

[00:54:04] And, and so was, you know, shooting pictures of a lot of the comedians and stuff.

[00:54:09] And I think she's done wonderful, uh, commercial work and, and, and book covers and, and that sort of thing.

[00:54:17] And, and I think I would like to try and do that, you know, like, I don't know exactly what that journey would be, but that's sort of the itch that I have to scratch now is figuring out what's the, what's the thing.

[00:54:29] Um, it'd be funny if I just magically transformed him to David LaChapelle now or something.

[00:54:35] I don't think, I don't think I have it.

[00:54:38] I'm trying to find honestly, the next step.

[00:54:41] Um, and I've put it on hold for a long time.

[00:54:43] And in 2020, I had a massive autoimmune event, um, which we found out is lupus.

[00:54:51] So yeah.

[00:54:52] Yeah.

[00:54:53] So that sort of took the, the whole photography career away.

[00:54:59] Um, and so it's been difficult for me to, to pick up a camera again, but I, I started a series years ago that was basically flowers that are, uh, frozen in ice.

[00:55:11] Oh, wow.

[00:55:12] And the cracks, you know, the, the imperfection in, in that series really fascinates me now is, you know, freezing that moment in time, looking back.

[00:55:22] Back to that time.

[00:55:23] And this was, you don't know it that you're in the heyday until the heyday is gone.

[00:55:28] And I think, um, and just capturing more ephemeral beauty is something that just really appeals to me these days.

[00:55:35] So that's probably me next.

[00:55:37] That's fascinating.

[00:55:39] How did that idea to freeze those flowers happen?

[00:55:42] Um, well, other thing that I sort of lost is I was, I was a big gardener.

[00:55:47] So I just absolutely loved taking pictures in the backyard of, you know, all these flowers that we had and pretty good floral photographer.

[00:55:57] But how do you differentiate yourself as a floral photographer?

[00:56:00] Well, I was like, well, give this a shot.

[00:56:02] I've never seen it.

[00:56:03] I've never seen flowers on ice.

[00:56:04] So let's give it a go.

[00:56:06] What's it look like?

[00:56:06] You know?

[00:56:07] Um, and it turns out it's cooler shit.

[00:56:11] Oh, yeah.

[00:56:12] Yeah.

[00:56:14] Yeah.

[00:56:15] The second book from you that I would buy in this, uh, and.

[00:56:19] Well, I need more time to actually get into it.

[00:56:23] Um, and hopefully.

[00:56:25] After this year is, as you just said, we, you will never not want more time at the end.

[00:56:32] You know, I'm, I'm again, going back to my, my Gen X roots of like some of the older folks and my extended family are needing more assistance.

[00:56:45] And, uh, uh, my father-in-law was very talented photographer too.

[00:56:50] And we're sort of struggling to go where exactly are these pictures?

[00:56:55] Um, he was an admin, uh, in the sixties and really had a, an interesting eye.

[00:57:01] Um, but we certainly have some of them that we're looking to try and make sure that they're, they're all backed up.

[00:57:06] Yeah.

[00:57:07] It's well, it's the weirdest phase of life at the moment.

[00:57:10] I think we're of similar ages.

[00:57:11] I'm a 74.

[00:57:12] Yeah.

[00:57:13] I was 73.

[00:57:14] Yeah.

[00:57:14] Yeah.

[00:57:15] Yeah.

[00:57:15] And so we're just going through that.

[00:57:18] Parents getting older, you know, dad just got the, the prostate cancer scare this week.

[00:57:23] And, you know, it just, and then have a, is the old dad.

[00:57:29] Let it just remain a scare.

[00:57:31] Yeah.

[00:57:32] Yeah.

[00:57:33] Well, people may have an eye roll moment here.

[00:57:35] Um, I got, as I said, got back in the comments in 2020 because of the lupus event.

[00:57:40] And I don't associate you with all the Marvel work.

[00:57:44] You're actually most famous for, I'm, I'm the dark room, you know, you're, you're the dark

[00:57:50] room guy.

[00:57:51] It should be obvious.

[00:57:52] Scott.

[00:58:22] See us.

[00:58:23] Um, produce the dark room.

[00:58:25] Uh, I just heard the dark room as a completely sold out right on the cusp of, we have a new

[00:58:33] 120 page book that I'm lettering right now.

[00:58:35] So volume two is coming.

[00:58:37] It's slightly delayed because of some of the personal stuff that I was going through this

[00:58:42] year.

[00:58:42] Um, not any type of book is late.

[00:58:45] I think everyone's knee jerk reaction is.

[00:58:47] So the sure fucking artists just sitting there.

[00:58:52] I mean, video games are smoking his tobacco.

[00:58:56] Nope.

[00:58:57] This was on me.

[00:58:58] So I'm super glad to hear that you love the dark room.

[00:59:01] You know, it, it was, uh, us trying to make sense of, um, a real ghost in our world.

[00:59:08] And the second one is even more personal.

[00:59:10] And I think more funnier.

[00:59:12] And I think more fucked up.

[00:59:14] Um, I'm super excited to, to hear what you think of that.

[00:59:18] I'll make sure that you get a PDF of that one too.

[00:59:21] Cause I'd love to come back in the spring and, and, and talk about that.

[00:59:26] Oh, I'm down.

[00:59:27] Yeah.

[00:59:27] I've been actually bugging Scott for about a year now.

[00:59:31] So he and I are connected.

[00:59:34] And what's that to come talk, to get on your podcast.

[00:59:38] Absolutely.

[00:59:39] Yeah.

[00:59:39] All right.

[00:59:40] Well, no, he, we're connected.

[00:59:42] We're, we're good.

[00:59:43] He's just, he, it was so funny.

[00:59:44] Cause the other day I reminded him and he's like, oh, we got another delay.

[00:59:48] It turns out it's you.

[00:59:49] So Scott's been a really good partner.

[00:59:54] Um, you know, we, we've had some family illnesses, other side that just, you know,

[01:00:00] required, um, me to try and be, uh, like as best a brother as I could.

[01:00:07] And, you know, um, and that's fine.

[01:00:11] Like, you know, it's not great that the, some of my work is delayed, but it's okay

[01:00:20] because we have to do these really important things now.

[01:00:24] You know, um, I'm very sorry that you had that, um, loop this event and I hope you get

[01:00:30] back to full strength.

[01:00:32] Um, but knowing too, that you maybe have some stuff that you need to go back and, you know,

[01:00:39] it's never a gift.

[01:00:40] I'm not going to tell you, loop this is some great gift, but if there is a wonderful silver

[01:00:45] lining that you get to assess that, Hey, here's my book of graffiti on train cars is fascinating.

[01:00:53] Yeah.

[01:00:53] Um, uh, I would, I, you know, those are turning that into art.

[01:00:59] I think is the only thing that makes sense to me, you know, is life gives us all of this

[01:01:06] shit all the time and it would be easy to think of it as shit.

[01:01:12] I think if we can try to think of it as fertilizer and what will we grow, it's the only thing that

[01:01:20] is optimistic to me is checking word out of that shit.

[01:01:25] Uh, it's the only thing maybe that keeps me sane in this world.

[01:01:30] Well, it made me a much better person.

[01:01:33] I mean, you have, I'm sure been around stage managers, production managers, you know what these,

[01:01:38] that was me.

[01:01:39] That was me.

[01:01:42] The first thing we do at those shows is introduce ourselves to the stage managers.

[01:01:46] I'd say, very nice to meet you.

[01:01:49] If you need talent, if you need me, if something's wrong, I want to introduce you.

[01:01:53] I introduce myself where our entrances and exits and, uh, and I'll see you soon.

[01:01:58] You guys are literally working like the interior of a clock, you know, like these shows stop

[01:02:05] happen without that kind of micromanaging and calm voice.

[01:02:10] Um, I mean, I've been at shows where everything goes wrong.

[01:02:13] I've been at shows where the wrong envelope gets opened and the wrong name gets read.

[01:02:18] Yeah.

[01:02:19] And we, as long as nobody knows in who's, who's whoever, the listener, the audience,

[01:02:26] the person watching on TV, if they don't know, it don't matter.

[01:02:30] The shows come off.

[01:02:31] Yeah.

[01:02:32] No, I mean, and the other grace is, and actually, you know, one of the blessings of my life is

[01:02:38] I do get to share.

[01:02:39] I can't do cons or anything.

[01:02:41] I don't travel well anymore, but it has gotten me back to comics.

[01:02:45] I get to talk to people like you, you know, which it's like that.

[01:02:49] That's, that's fucking amazing.

[01:02:50] Right.

[01:02:50] And in my book and trying to make, you know, so many years of my life were, and it's funny,

[01:02:57] you know, this full circle stuff.

[01:02:58] Right.

[01:02:59] So for years and years and years, just hustle, hustle, hustle, and like elevating and pushing

[01:03:03] other people's art and everything.

[01:03:05] And then I did my own and here I am, you know, back to it again, you know, kind of,

[01:03:09] kind of doing the same thing.

[01:03:11] So.

[01:03:11] You know, whatever brings joy, you know, if comic books brings joy, it's, you cannot

[01:03:18] underestimate how much.

[01:03:22] I wrote a note this week.

[01:03:24] It's silly aside.

[01:03:26] There's a controversy where I am about whether or not to make this land that is already just

[01:03:32] a wash.

[01:03:33] If it's an overflow in case of flooding, but there's about 10 feet on either side, that

[01:03:38] could be a park and a greenway from bicycles.

[01:03:41] And as anything in this American life now can be controversial.

[01:03:46] I just said, wouldn't it be great to have a green space and on the off chance that it

[01:03:51] might bring joy.

[01:03:52] You know, I think that's gotta be the lesson of some very difficult years that we've experienced

[01:03:58] is just, let's just drive towards that and try and name what we love and drive towards

[01:04:06] what we love.

[01:04:07] Uh, and then see if life gets any better for us collectively.

[01:04:11] Otherwise there's a lot too much to be depressed about.

[01:04:14] Yeah.

[01:04:15] Yeah.

[01:04:16] Well, that, that was lupus for me is that you can either, I found very quickly people

[01:04:19] immediately were like, well, you should join all these Facebook groups during COVID.

[01:04:23] Right.

[01:04:23] So nobody in person, but you know, who are, who also have it, who understand.

[01:04:29] And I did.

[01:04:31] And it took me about three or four days.

[01:04:33] And I was like, fuck this, like no disrespect to them.

[01:04:36] I know what they're going through, but at the same time, I don't need more of that.

[01:04:40] I can either wallow in it or I can, you know, do full from my superpower, which is will and

[01:04:48] you know, live life.

[01:04:51] I, I'm just curious, knowing that you're a visual artist, have you considered, you know,

[01:04:58] collaborating on comic because you obviously you're telling stories, um, already, you know,

[01:05:05] I have found that if you can tell stories, oftentimes you'll be surprised at where and

[01:05:13] how you can also tell story.

[01:05:15] Yeah.

[01:05:16] I did.

[01:05:16] Funnily I am, I'm working on a couple of things.

[01:05:19] I, there's a, um, we've got some friends who are doing a, a disability and neurodivergence

[01:05:24] anthology and yeah, it's really cool.

[01:05:27] Going to have them on later this month, but I'm, they were like, Hey, can you please

[01:05:32] contribute?

[01:05:33] And I was like, I'd love to at the moment finances are tight.

[01:05:36] So I, you know, I can't, I can't pay an artist to do what I want to do.

[01:05:41] They have another volume I'm in and you know, I've got, got a couple other things as everybody

[01:05:45] does.

[01:05:45] I have a million ideas, but yeah, getting there.

[01:05:49] There's a lot of different ways to do it.

[01:05:52] Um, I hope you get to do it if that's what you want to do.

[01:05:54] So thank you.

[01:05:59] Well, you, I love that you're doing so much indie stuff and that's dropping.

[01:06:03] Um, but West coast Avengers was, was my, my, the first comic I ever bought at the gas

[01:06:09] station as a kid.

[01:06:11] Right.

[01:06:11] You know, in that Stern hall run.

[01:06:13] Um, so it has a special place in my art.

[01:06:15] So the Ultron, that's an interesting one.

[01:06:18] I'm just curious how you're going to play, play with him.

[01:06:20] You don't have to get anything away, but of course.

[01:06:23] Well, I'll tell you, um, I inherited on my first rodeo with Ultron.

[01:06:33] Um, there was a graphic novel that, uh, Rick did with Jerome called a rage of Ultron and

[01:06:43] it saw I'll spoil the end of the book.

[01:06:46] I feel like their expiration dates on spoilers.

[01:06:49] Ultron and Hank Pym became merged and nobody really knew exactly.

[01:06:53] That was the end of the graphic novel.

[01:06:55] They seem to be at peace with each other after a wonderful graphic novel.

[01:06:59] And I was the first one to reach for Ultron after.

[01:07:05] And Tom was, Tom Brevoort was skeptical.

[01:07:10] He said, I don't know that we've established what that is.

[01:07:15] And I said, Tom, it's a horse.

[01:07:17] It's Ultron wearing his face.

[01:07:21] And, but it's also maybe Hank reaching for help from inside of his creation.

[01:07:28] You know, it's Dr. Frankenstein being swallowed up by the monster.

[01:07:33] And so we'll hold this horror story.

[01:07:35] And he, I think the shorthand for him became Pymtron, you know, where they were this merge

[01:07:41] personality at war with each other.

[01:07:43] And it stuck for a number of years.

[01:07:45] That's how, you know, continuity isn't what we get published.

[01:07:49] It's what someone else picks up and plays with and doesn't have legs.

[01:07:54] And then Al, uh, Al Ewing, who is such a talented writer, such a wonderful guy.

[01:08:00] And what a great collaborator.

[01:08:03] But he was always interested in redeeming and saving Hank them, which I was not against

[01:08:09] because I think Ultron and Hank are a little more interested.

[01:08:12] Oh yeah.

[01:08:13] I agree.

[01:08:14] He told this wonderful story where, uh, Hank was saved from Ultron and, you know, as you

[01:08:22] know, as an old school West coast vendors fan, the idea of a West coast book hadn't come

[01:08:29] up and I thought, well, I have this other Ultron story to tell, which I never thought I would

[01:08:34] really be able to tell.

[01:08:35] And that's Ultron breaks good.

[01:08:39] And the, you know, a lot of the old West coast book was, were very Ultron centric stories.

[01:08:45] Yeah.

[01:08:45] I like that.

[01:08:46] We sort of have a little bit of that DNA here, but this is a much different Ultron story

[01:08:51] that you're going to get.

[01:08:52] And by the last scene of the first issue, it's a little slightly oversized first issue.

[01:08:59] I hope it's a big holy shit moment for everybody.

[01:09:02] Um, but I will say sincerely, it, it is also what you're going to get.

[01:09:08] You're going to see an attempted Ultron story.

[01:09:12] Uh, I'm sorry.

[01:09:13] An attempted, uh, heroic Ultron story and, um, how and why they trust him as a thing that

[01:09:22] we'll sort of play with, uh, towards the end of the first volume, find out what exactly

[01:09:28] he did that earned his, his grace.

[01:09:30] It's going to be a fun book.

[01:09:32] It's a little bit of a different book too.

[01:09:34] Um, Danny Kim is drawing it right now.

[01:09:37] It's, it's wonderful.

[01:09:38] And there've been some really great covers.

[01:09:41] Yeah.

[01:09:41] Yeah.

[01:09:41] I like that idea, especially giving how current and topical it is as we all sort of grapple

[01:09:47] with AI and how that's replacing us.

[01:09:51] There's certainly some parallels between adding a little bit of conscious that human consciousness

[01:09:56] does into the machine.

[01:09:57] So, yeah.

[01:09:58] I, are you worried about where it all goes?

[01:10:01] I certainly am.

[01:10:02] I don't think it will replace us.

[01:10:05] Oh, yeah.

[01:10:05] Yes, absolutely.

[01:10:06] Yeah.

[01:10:07] Yeah.

[01:10:07] But, but I do think it's not going to stop the money from trying to see what they can get

[01:10:13] away with.

[01:10:14] Meaning like the, the, like you're like, shit's just going to get worse.

[01:10:19] It is.

[01:10:20] In terms of quality instead of artists, it's anything not to pay an artist, you know?

[01:10:26] Yeah.

[01:10:26] We don't have to destroy the environment for AI to, to have art.

[01:10:32] I think a lot of it lately, I have felt very down.

[01:10:38] And then I talked to Sarah Anderson fairly recently who has an ongoing lawsuit against several

[01:10:45] of the, the generative AI specific to artwork stuff.

[01:10:50] Right.

[01:10:51] And she was positive about it, which makes me more positive about it.

[01:10:56] And seeing people step up, seeing some of the news recently where a lot of these AI companies,

[01:11:02] you're, you're starting to see the barriers and they, you know, it's what they're going

[01:11:05] to do.

[01:11:06] They're just going to run with it and run with it and run with it until you put up a legal

[01:11:09] wall that says you can't.

[01:11:12] So I'm hopeful than I was four months ago.

[01:11:15] Yeah.

[01:11:16] Yeah.

[01:11:17] Um, I think, uh, you know, it's a, it's a huge giant Enron scam right now that somehow

[01:11:23] going to be, and frankly, if you thought Napster was stealing, I think whether you like paying

[01:11:33] for music or not, you would, you would agree.

[01:11:35] You stole the music you downloaded from Napster.

[01:11:39] Why on earth would you be morally okay with a program that made it, that stole the art

[01:11:46] and then made you not ever need the artist.

[01:11:50] It's really a chop shop.

[01:11:52] And what it does, it, it steals it very badly and sort of regurgicates it out.

[01:11:58] I think the courts are getting it right.

[01:12:00] I think the U S copyright office is getting it right.

[01:12:02] Yeah.

[01:12:03] Telling you this, uh, for anything that you publish.

[01:12:08] Um, I've changed my indicia, the like legal paragraphs at the bottom of the inside cover

[01:12:16] of a book or on, on Marvel and DC comics.

[01:12:19] It's at the bottom of the first page.

[01:12:22] Usually a lot of the publishing information and who represents who.

[01:12:27] And my last two sentences are just very simple.

[01:12:31] We forbid the, you know, this, we'd name check the honors of the book at image for in the dark

[01:12:38] room.

[01:12:38] For instance, it's myself and Scott bond Cristiano.

[01:12:42] And we forbid the training of this material on generative AI.

[01:12:46] And we will treat the, any such usage as bleeder.

[01:12:51] And it may never give us a hammer, but I want it in on record now that we do not consent.

[01:12:59] Good for you.

[01:13:01] I mean, everybody, everybody needs to be doing that.

[01:13:04] I mean, I, I have preached and preached and preached about registering photos at the copyright office.

[01:13:10] It's, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's not a lot, but it's something.

[01:13:14] Yeah.

[01:13:14] And photographers who knew how to embed copyrights in the data of their images, you know, this

[01:13:20] stuff is huge.

[01:13:21] Yep.

[01:13:22] And, and by the way, you hit the nail on the head.

[01:13:26] It's absolutely the courts are really letting the material advance in the courts that have

[01:13:35] AI cases pending.

[01:13:37] The thing that they all have in common is they all have copyright.

[01:13:41] You know, if you don't have the copyright, you're often being dismissed or you're often

[01:13:48] being, you're not, you're not going to the next step of the legal argument.

[01:13:54] You know, we really need to, um, have strong protection against this and, uh, you know, it's,

[01:14:03] it's not settled law yet.

[01:14:05] So, you know, obviously every election seems to get more and more important.

[01:14:10] We need to, we need to have, uh, a world in which there, uh, is not zero reason to be an artist.

[01:14:21] Absolutely.

[01:14:23] Well, let's end on trying to sell some books of yours.

[01:14:27] How's that?

[01:14:28] How's that sound?

[01:14:29] So timing, look, I'm sure it does, you know, timing looks drops right before Thanksgiving.

[01:14:35] And I will reiterate that it'd make a fantastic gift for comics or photography fans in your

[01:14:40] life.

[01:14:40] I'm picking up one for me and I'm going to give one to my father-in-law.

[01:14:44] No, thank you.

[01:14:45] It's very kind of you.

[01:14:46] I really appreciate it.

[01:14:47] Uh, I'm glad you like the book.

[01:14:49] Um, you know, it's, it's a, it's an odd book from image, right?

[01:14:53] It's not a creator-owned comic, but it is a comic.

[01:14:57] I'm sorry.

[01:14:58] It's a photo book about the making of so many comics and about, um, the creative being a

[01:15:05] fly on the wall in those creative processes that I just, I love, I love the book.

[01:15:11] I'm glad that it is going to be, uh, uh, around, uh, and on sale in November.

[01:15:18] And I'm going to, um, have, uh, the trade, the first volume of the trade of falling in

[01:15:30] love on the path to hell will be January.

[01:15:33] Um, we're going to have, uh, some more announcements about that.

[01:15:37] We're going to have the dark room in the first quarter of 2022, the second volume of dark room.

[01:15:43] And then we're going to have a really cool announcement about, um, soft covers of the

[01:15:50] first two volumes and what we're going to, we're going to try there.

[01:15:53] We're getting a little experimental.

[01:15:56] Uh, I have, uh, dead eyes is back right now.

[01:16:00] Um, which is a really fun crime comic for myself and John McRae.

[01:16:06] I love it.

[01:16:07] It's really, it's John's super cool.

[01:16:09] And this comic is really cool.

[01:16:11] And, um, it's maybe the, like one of the most personal things that I've gotten a chance to do.

[01:16:19] It incorporates a lot of my life and, uh, Boston that's on shelves now and will be collected

[01:16:26] next year.

[01:16:27] Um, so, and I'm cooking another, uh, uh, image project.

[01:16:33] So I'm really, uh, you know, I, I've been so privileged to do so many cool things, um,

[01:16:40] from Marvel to a little bit of DC to my image work and then adapting my image work in Hollywood.

[01:16:48] But making these image comics, excuse me, is really the thing that I love most.

[01:16:55] I love you staying in the indie pocket.

[01:16:57] So I, I will buy it cause I love indie stories so much more.

[01:17:02] Yeah.

[01:17:02] There's so much person, more personal.

[01:17:04] So awesome.

[01:17:06] Well, I saw on your, on your, yeah, well, it's on your sub stack.

[01:17:09] There might be some hardcovers that are still around from that original Kickstarter run.

[01:17:13] Is that, is that true?

[01:17:14] Or there are very few.

[01:17:16] I, I overprinted in case I was advised to overprint in case of damages or law.

[01:17:22] Um, it was good advice.

[01:17:24] And, uh, I certainly was trying to give the books as gifts, especially to folks that were,

[01:17:30] um, my subjects.

[01:17:31] Um, and then, uh, because we, they came right from the printer in the shipping box, which was

[01:17:41] really cool.

[01:17:42] I did, I signed the vellum tip and played, played, uh, at the, uh, uh, artworks here.

[01:17:51] And then it went to the printer.

[01:17:52] So this books are really sturdy.

[01:17:54] So I didn't, I don't think I had about one loss.

[01:17:57] And that was cause I didn't put enough tape on the box in the beginning.

[01:18:00] It was my fault.

[01:18:01] So I do have a few of the, the, um, signed edition.

[01:18:06] Let's deal with.

[01:18:08] Okay.

[01:18:08] Well, everybody should sign up for your sub stack.

[01:18:11] Yeah.

[01:18:12] Yeah.

[01:18:13] Yeah.

[01:18:13] I'll put a link in the show notes, make it easier for everybody.

[01:18:16] Jerry, thanks so much for, for coming on.

[01:18:19] And thank you.

[01:18:20] And I will say if anybody else is, is interested in more documentary stuff about photography beyond

[01:18:25] finding Vivian Meyer, the, um, I've been watching photographer, which is on Disney plus recently.

[01:18:31] Have you heard of that one?

[01:18:32] I haven't.

[01:18:33] Okay.

[01:18:33] No, what's that one?

[01:18:35] So that's six different stories following different people, different types of photography.

[01:18:40] I've been a big fan of, yeah.

[01:18:41] Do you know who Paul Nicklin is?

[01:18:44] I don't know the room.

[01:18:46] Everybody's seen his pictures of polar bears.

[01:18:47] That's, that's, that's his thing.

[01:18:49] Is it the polar bears in the houses?

[01:18:52] No, it's the, it's the polar bears on the ice flow, which is sort of isolated by itself

[01:18:57] or the polar bear where there's a reflection.

[01:18:59] It's underwater swimming and you see the reflection on top that that's Paul stuff.

[01:19:04] But he and, and Christina Mitmeyer, they're co-founders of sea legacy who are doing like

[01:19:09] amazing conservation work with the world's oceans.

[01:19:11] I don't talk about it much because it's not comics related, but I'm super passionate about

[01:19:16] it.

[01:19:16] I'll drop that link so people can check that out too.

[01:19:18] Okay, cool.

[01:19:19] Yeah.

[01:19:19] Clues do.

[01:19:20] And Matt Oswald has a really interesting book, by the way.

[01:19:24] I mentioned him earlier.

[01:19:26] His, his book is also available on his website.

[01:19:30] I think it's Matt Oswald photo.

[01:19:33] It's liquor stores and detours.

[01:19:35] And so he, he grabs his camera, he goes out and he shoots in the golden hour.

[01:19:42] And what's interesting.

[01:19:43] And you know, you can only kind of blunder into this.

[01:19:47] He's also weirdly become a preservationist because so many of these like mid-century great signage,

[01:19:55] super cool neon or, or, or some other striking thing.

[01:19:59] Some of these places are already gone.

[01:20:02] Yeah.

[01:20:02] When LA in particular is really rotten about saving its history and COVID accelerated a lot of that, unfortunately.

[01:20:10] So there's a photo of mine that I love from the Pacific dining car.

[01:20:15] Um, and it's just, that's gone, you know, the Pacific dining car is gone.

[01:20:20] And so that's, I, the loss of it makes me.

[01:20:24] Well, we tend to think of places as timeless, but I, in the book, there's a photo, a couple of photos, actually, I think of the Salton Sea.

[01:20:32] And I've been out there and tromped around and we were out there.

[01:20:35] It was when light painting first became a thing.

[01:20:38] So buddy, I'm on and out.

[01:20:39] We're on the beach.

[01:20:40] It looked like Beirut or, I mean, it could have been the moon, right?

[01:20:43] It was just so messed up.

[01:20:45] And I came back five years later and none of that remained.

[01:20:51] None of them.

[01:20:52] So Salton Sea in particular is really going to go through some changes because they found, I think, a giant deposit of lithium.

[01:20:59] Have you heard about that?

[01:21:00] I have.

[01:21:01] Yeah.

[01:21:01] I mean, talk about from rags to riches, like that whole, that whole section.

[01:21:08] But we have, uh, as you know, a remarkably polluted area too.

[01:21:13] Like it's, it needs to, you know, they, they can't let that place dry out because I think it would be like a nuclear level fall off all of the iron and air and the heavy metals and everything that keep blowing around is what a shit show we've done to the environment.

[01:21:31] But anyway, not, not to end it on a lot of that.

[01:21:33] No, no, that's good.

[01:21:35] We'll win it on a happier one.

[01:21:36] Have you been to Salvation Mountain down there?

[01:21:38] I have not.

[01:21:40] Oh my God.

[01:21:40] Google Salvation Mountain and talk about a piece of, um, true Americana folk art.

[01:21:47] Like that, that place is bananas.

[01:21:50] So, yeah.

[01:21:52] Yeah.

[01:21:52] I mean, the vault here gets really cool and weird pretty quickly.

[01:21:55] Like there's a lot of cool.

[01:21:59] There's a lot of cool.

[01:22:00] It was, uh, like that banana museum.

[01:22:03] You know, again, super cool California road trips.

[01:22:06] I recommend everybody sort of drive from Palm Springs to Salton Sea to LA and, and check out those desert communities.

[01:22:14] Um, but they're really special.

[01:22:17] Oh yeah.

[01:22:17] Yeah.

[01:22:18] We got out of finished up a workshop at, um, Death Valley and we were headed out to, uh, that, that corridor in the Sierras, you know, up towards Manzanar and everything.

[01:22:29] And got a tip from a buddy to that.

[01:22:31] We should definitely go out to the, the Manson compound that used to be out there.

[01:22:35] So that, that was pretty wild.

[01:22:36] That's cool.

[01:22:37] Yeah.

[01:22:38] Hey, I just threw my email in the chat too.

[01:22:41] Drop me a note.

[01:22:44] Yeah.

[01:22:44] Yeah.

[01:22:45] We'll do.

[01:22:45] I took everything down.

[01:22:46] That didn't make sense to have the website up anymore and pay the costs.

[01:22:49] So like most of the existing stuff is at this point, I'll send you some stuff, but it's, um, it's all Getty stuff, which is like, you know, sunrise, sunset, Ciccadia national park.

[01:23:00] It's great.

[01:23:01] I love it, but it's not.

[01:23:03] Yeah.

[01:23:04] Anyway, Jerry, thanks so much for, for chatting.

[01:23:07] Um, this is byron.

[01:23:08] Yeah.

[01:23:09] And, uh, I, I know we'll talk again.

[01:23:12] Yeah.

[01:23:12] That's awesome.

[01:23:13] Well, on behalf of all of us at comic book Getty, thanks for tuning in and we will see you next time.

[01:23:17] Take care, everybody.

[01:23:18] This is Byron O'Neill, one of your hosts of the Cryptid Creator Corner brought to you by comic book Getty.

[01:23:24] We hope you've enjoyed this episode of our podcast.

[01:23:28] Please rate, review, subscribe, all that good stuff.

[01:23:31] It lets us know how we're doing and more importantly, how we can improve.

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