Helen Mullane and Tula Lotay Interview - Groupies

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Your ears do not deceive you. You've just entered the Cryptid Creator Corner brought to you by your friends at Comic Book Yeti. So without further ado, let's get on to the interview.

[00:00:10] [SPEAKER_03]: You ever been to a martial arts tournament like this?

[00:00:13] [SPEAKER_03]: When I was a kid, there was a used bookstore in town. I begged my mom to drop me off all the time. They had a loose stack of comics that I used to thumb through searching for secret gold. One day, I came across Daredevil 189. That's that Frank Miller cover that's iconic with DD flying through the air and a hail of arrows.

[00:00:28] [SPEAKER_03]: The book was a complete snobber knocker throwdown with the hand and Sticks sacrifices himself to save Matt at the end. Ever since that moment, I have loved martial arts comic books.

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_03]: So when fellow Yeti Alex Green reached out about his Kickstarter project From Within, I was excited to find out more about it.

[00:00:44] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a 240 page martial arts revenge graphic novel about a slave fighting his way through a deadly tournament where the rules shift according to the whims of, you guessed it, a tyrannical emperor.

[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Full of high impact fight sequences, it's sure to delight any fan of action focused fiction.

[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Artist Renzo Podesta kills the genre. See what I did there? And the whole project is already complete.

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_03]: So the hardest part, the one that makes you wait is already done.

[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Bounce on over to Kickstarter and search for From Within.

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll drop a link in the show notes to make it easy for you. Make sure to check it out.

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Y'all, Jimmy, the Chaos Goblin strikes again.

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_03]: I should have known better than to mention I was working on my DC Universe meets Ravenloft hybrid D&D campaign on social media. My bad.

[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_03]: He goes and tags a bunch of comics creators we know, and now I have to get it in gear and whip this campaign into shape so we can start playing.

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Another friend chimes in, are you gonna make maps? It's fair to say it's been a while since I put something together so I guess, question mark?

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_03]: It was then that I discovered Arkham Forge. If you don't know who Arkham Forge is, they have everything you need to make your TTRPG more fun and immersive.

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Allowing you to build, play, and export animated maps, including in-person Fog of War capability that lets your players interact with maps as the adventure unfolds while you, the DM, get the full picture.

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Now I'm set to easily build high-res animated maps, saving myself precious time and significantly adding nuance to our campaign.

[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_03]: That's a win every day in my book. Check them out at arkhamforge.com and use the discount code YETI5 to get $5 off.

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll drop a link in the show notes for you. And big thanks to Arkham Forge for partnering with our show.

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_03]: I think I'm gonna make Jimmy play a goblin warlock just to get even.

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Hello everybody and welcome to today's episode of the Cryptid Creator Corner. I'm Byron Neal, your host for today's Comics Creator Chat.

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_03]: For those that have listened to the show for some time, most of you will know that I spent a decade and a half in the entertainment industry, on the tech and management side of things, mostly working concerts.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_03]: If you're a newcomer, welcome to the family. And that little bit of personal backstory will explain my excitement about the project we're covering today, as I might know a thing or two about it.

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Groupies, a five-issue series dropping on comiXology full of sex, drug, rock and roll, set in its most debaucherous timeframe.

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's my pleasure to introduce two newcomers to the podcast, Weaver of Words and Musher of Mutt, Helen Mulan, and Brainstormer of Thought Bubbles, artist of Eisner's and clincher of Clampett, Tula Lotte.

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Apologies for the alliteration. It's the Cryptid Creator Corner. It's something we do.

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_03]: I was taking a shot at a new intro version there, so I hadn't workshopped it, so hopefully it worked.

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_03]: But thank you both for carving out a little time to chat about this.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_03]: I know, Helen, you're busy, I guess, prepping to come to NYCC next week.

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_03]: So I've caught you in travel time. How are you both doing?

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_06]: Right, right.

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. Well, I say really good. I'm not doing too good, but I'm okay.

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_05]: I had a bout in hospital recently, and I've kind of come out of it with like two full-on colds one after the other, and this one's been going on for two weeks.

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_05]: So, but I'm coming out of it. But if I have a coughing fit during this, please excuse me.

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, no problem. I'm glad you're starting to feel better. It's like COVID-related or something?

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_05]: What's that? Sorry?

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_05]: Was it COVID-related or something? No, it was lady-related.

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_05]: It's to do with fibroids. I had some fibroid surgery.

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_05]: So I don't mind talking about this stuff, but a couple of months ago, I nearly died.

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh my goodness.

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. I have fibroids, which one in three women do suffer from during their lives, especially middle-aged.

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_04]: Yep.

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_05]: And because of that, I've just had constant bleeding for like two years, and it got bad, and I collapsed and lost so much blood, I would have died.

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_05]: So I had to have free blood transfusions, and now I feel amazing other than the cold.

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, well, I mean, that's good. I mean, sorry you're going through all that. My wife has dealt with it too, so yeah.

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, is she okay?

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah. She's doing fine. It wasn't, you know, a terribly bad case of dealing with it. But yeah, I know it is very common, and people just don't talk about it that much.

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_05]: And that's why it's good to just say it, isn't it? Because also, I've been quiet on social media, and I've been really behind on deadlines and stuff.

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_05]: And you know, when you're self-employed, and you have like a spell like this, and you don't know what to expect, there's no sick pay or anything. You've got to kind of just keep working through it.

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_05]: So I've had a lot of patient, very, very patient people waiting on me. Yeah, I got a lot of stuff to get in.

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_03]: That's good. My experience anyway with the comics industry is people are much more understanding and kind, certainly than the music business that I came from, which it's, yeah, that is not the way at all.

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Music's a bit more cutthroat, huh?

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, just a bit. Just a bit. But, and Helen, I know this is off topic, but you really must tell me about the dog mushing thing.

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Because I've talked to so many comics creators, and you're the only one I know that has this on the side.

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Or maybe this is more kind of the main thing that you're doing right now. But I've done it as a tourist.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_03]: It was on a cruise many moons ago with my in-laws, jumped on a helicopter in Juneau, and we went up to a glacier and did the whole mushing and learned about it a little bit.

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_03]: But where did this love come from?

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Actually, from doing it as a tourist as well, same as you.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I did a tour when I was on holiday in Norway.

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And it just stuck in my mind as one of the most peaceful and beautiful and amazing things I'd ever done.

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And I was working in the film industry at that time.

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And I ended up kind of leaving it all behind, taking a 10 year side mission.

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, being a musher, I ended up racing and doing kind of long distance stuff.

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, it was pretty wild.

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's incredible. That's really cool.

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_04]: So are you mushing?

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm like, I talk about groupies a lot at the moment and everyone's like, who are you working with?

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_05]: And then I tell them all about Helen and they're like, she's cool.

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's a bit metal for a comics writer. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome.

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. Like to take those little, you know, side, uh, uh, side jumps, side runs.

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, we're talking all about rock and roll today and I couldn't figure out a smooth way to work this in later on.

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_03]: So, Tua, I know you're a John Jay Muth fan.

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_03]: I was listening to your chat promoting the Lake Como comic art festival.

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_03]: And I had Steve and Arno on earlier this year to talk about the show.

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_03]: I understand you have an original Muth like in your bathroom now, which is fucking metal as hell, or at least it is for me. Right.

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_03]: It's making me envious as a big fan of his. So which project was it from?

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, so it's, um, Dracula has symphony moonlight and night.

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes. Yeah.

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_06]: It's a favorite. Oh yeah.

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_05]: Um, I, I remember picking that book up from this small comic star in Leeds, um, in my teens.

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_05]: And it was just the most beautiful thing I'd ever seen. It was gorgeous.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's always stayed with me. I've got like three copies of that.

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_05]: Um, and then I saw it one year in San Diego comic con and he was actually there, but I didn't talk to him and say, I absolutely love your work.

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_05]: I was kind of just a bit shy.

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_05]: And he was like, Oh, you'd like to have a look. Um, thinking I was just curious.

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_05]: And I was like, yes, I'll buy it. And he's like, Oh, Oh, you want to buy it?

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. It's in my bathroom. It's beautiful. It's, it's only in my bathroom because that's where I go the most in and out. So I can just like look at it.

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_03]: I need to do that. I need to put something like in the bathroom for that purpose. Cause I've never thought about it just being that high traffic and area. I usually don't put much art there. So.

[00:09:11] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. Like I put a lot of my favorite things in, in my downstairs bathroom.

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_03]: I've got some relocating to do then.

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I don't know if you've heard about his music. Um, but when, when I was a lighting designer, I used to listen to his, the earth series variations in G like all the time during tech rehearsals.

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_03]: So we'd have, they do the soundcheck first and then I would blast that. And Glenn Danzig's black aria, like the instrumental album. I don't know if you've heard that.

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_05]: Sorry. Sorry. Who's music?

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, Moose music.

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_05]: What?

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_05]: He's a musician.

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh yeah.

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_05]: I had no idea.

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. Look it up. It's, it's kind of tricky to find. It's back then it was on CD of all things.

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Like no.

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_03]: He's anymore, but yeah, it's called the earth series variations in G.

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_05]: Wow. Thank you.

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm going to check it out.

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. Check it out.

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, Danzig album is incredible.

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_03]: I am. I love Danzig's music.

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know about him getting in and staying into the comics realm though.

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Cause like I picked those up back in the day because of the, the Beasley covers, but in general, those, those.

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_03]: But anyway.

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I've not revisited any of those.

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_05]: I can imagine they probably haven't aged well, but in terms of my memory of them, I, I loved them.

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_04]: I only remember the title.

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, was it Verodica?

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Was that?

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay. Yeah.

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll have to go back in the archives and pull those out, but, and give them a look again, see if they've aged, how they've aged.

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_05]: The art was beautiful.

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_05]: Like.

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_05]: Like Sid Bisley, Liam Sharp, all that stuff is just, just gorgeous stuff.

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, jumping into groupies, I brought a visual aid.

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_03]: So I've got, I pulled out just a handful of stuff from back in the day, just a bunch of old passes.

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, but I think everybody at some has, has fantasized about some kind of a romantic encounter with a musician.

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I know for myself, I had a thing for Shirley Manson from garbage, you know, back in the day.

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that everybody who grew up in, in the time that I did, um, you know, Michael Hutchins of in excess, that was the first moment where I actually started to question if I was indeed straight or not.

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_03]: So, but, but, but I want the tea here from both of you.

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_03]: So who are you yours?

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, maybe you still have them.

[00:11:53] Yeah.

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_05]: Josh, Josh Homme.

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_05]: He's so, he's so pretty.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, mine, I had two massive obsessions when I was, especially my teenage years.

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_02]: It was Peter Steele from Typo Negative.

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh my God.

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_05]: That's me and Becky Cloonan as well.

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_05]: We basically put a thumbnail on him.

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I really, yeah.

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, to the point that my, my, um, teenage boyfriend actually bought me the Playgirl that, um,

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_02]: You've got an original copy of that.

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_02]: That Peter Steele is in, um, so.

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_05]: You need to see that for us.

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_02]: For research purposes.

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm holding my collar up tight.

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, yeah.

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_02]: So him and then, um, Terry B from Tura Satana.

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, who was just incredible kind of kick ass goth from the, from the nineties.

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_03]: I, I do remember back in the day working a Typo Negative show.

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that was at the, the pink flamingo.

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Wow.

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't remember all that much about that night.

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_03]: A lot of that stuff just blurs together, but I did work a Typo Negative show and I get, I get it.

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_03]: He's hot.

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_03]: It's, it's such a fun and playful way, way to kind of explore your sexuality either through fantasy or for some people, even scoring a night with a rock star.

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_03]: You get very little judgment for it, you know, for your friends and societally, right?

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_03]: You sleep with a, a skeezy frat guy and you'll catch all kinds of shit from your friends, but you bang a drummer in a band and you get high fives and smiles.

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_03]: It's like a super strange phenomenon.

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_03]: And, and rarely does it seem like there's a cost involved, you know?

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_03]: So what attracted you to wanting to use groupies as the primary POV for the story?

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's interesting, like talking about, um, Peter Steele, um, and that attraction to rock stars and stuff, because for him, there was a lot that was about his lyrics as well.

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And the things that he said that made him seem like someone, well, that you wanted to have sex with, but also like someone that you could really vibe with.

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Sure.

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And, um, I'm quite fascinated by this idea of this kind of parasocial, um, relationship.

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Like the groupies feel like they know the rock stars that they're getting in bed with in a, in a real, sometimes in, in quite an elevated and spiritual way because of the music or because of the lyrics.

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I think that's like one of the things that's really interesting about them, you know, that they just bring it to kind of its, uh, its extreme, most extreme form in terms that they're, they're actually kind of going out and living that parasocial relationship, which I find really interesting.

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think also like, there's a lot of great media that has groupies in it, um, in quite a big way, like Almost Famous, for example.

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_02]: But they don't necessarily give you any, they don't explore the girls themselves in a kind of, in a way that felt satisfying to me.

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I wanted to kind of go a little bit deeper into who these women are because, you know, there's something quite extraordinary about people who go so far outside of, of the norm and just live their life how they want to on their own terms, uh, no matter what.

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And even though, like these days, you might not get judged too much for, you know, banging a rock star back in the day, certainly in this kind of 60s, 70s era, it put you a little bit outside of, of society, you know, to do it outside of the mainstream at least.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, you're, you're setting things up in that era with the iconic sunset strip as, as the backdrop.

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_03]: I lived a portion of the hair middle days myself.

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_03]: I've worked many a show at the Roxy theater.

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm curious about using that in a story and, and what mystique it might hold for both of you who, who grew up in England.

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's always one of those, the grass is always greener things.

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Like I'm a massive Liverpool fan.

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_03]: So that's always been, you know, the, the music Mecca for me, uh, as an American.

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_03]: So what made that the, the, was it just the obvious location?

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm just kind of curious about a personal connection.

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, I think it, it was just groupie central.

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I think for, uh, you know, for our era, that kind of the Fillmore and all of those, um, all of those venues, they were kind of where the action was.

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_02]: So in terms of centering it a little bit in, in the kind of the real melee, um, of the groupie world, it felt like the natural kind of starting point.

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, with the band itself, uh, did either of you model, you know, moon show off of any particular bands?

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, typo negative.

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I, I didn't actually, but, um, I just, I've just come from another comic where we did use Pete Steele.

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_05]: So I felt like, but, um, when, when I was like looking at the band, I kind of was looking at some of my favorite music from the, well, mainly the eighties, really.

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_05]: Um, a lot of German music and, um, I was kind of looking at some of the bands back then that I love, like Amal Dull and, um, Tender and Dream and all those rock bands back then can.

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_05]: Um, so there's, there's a little bit of, of that kind of early eighties German influence in terms of looks in there for me.

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_05]: Which is obviously quite different to the story and what was going on in the U.S.

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_05]: Like, it's a lot more, well, it's still, it's still kind of, there's a lot of psychedelic stuff, but obviously there's a lot, a lot more like Moog Simpson stuff in the, in the German stuff of that time.

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_05]: We don't, we don't have a simp player in groupies.

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's no simps in the band.

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, but, um, I think from, uh, from my perspective as well, like I did read quite a lot about the most notorious groupie loving bands, you know, though, um, uh, Led Zeppelin was, uh, definitely, uh, I listened to an incredible amount of Led Zeppelin when I was writing these scripts.

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, just kind of on a loop.

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, because I feel like their vibe and the level of obsession that they managed to garner from so many women were, it just kind of felt like the, the, the center of, of that sort of groupie world.

[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_06]: That makes a lot of sense.

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_05]: And like, sorry, especially with like the dialogues that are coming out now where like women are being heard a lot more, like the stuff that was going on in those bands at the time and like the people that are talking about Led Zepp and everything back then.

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_05]: And it kind of brings up some really difficult conversations about what is appropriate now and what was seen as normal back then.

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_05]: And yeah, a lot of our favorite musicians kind of looking back and thinking, oh my God, do we choose to just like still enjoy this music for me anyway?

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, sorry.

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Go on.

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_02]: No, no, you go ahead.

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, and that's such a big aspect of it for me because I feel like there's, there's this really interesting gray area, um, between the kind of personhood and the, of, of women and girls doing things that they want to do because they're in love with a rock star or whatever.

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, and the rock star taking advantage of, of these things.

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Like there's, there's, there's a, an incredibly messy place somewhere in, in the middle that I find really, um, find really fascinating.

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that with so many, um, so many revelations coming out about things in the music industry, I mean, right at the moment, in fact, you know, with everything that's going on.

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, um, I think it's, um, it's really interesting to spend some time trying to kind of pass out the fact that the women aren't kind of devalued by the fact that they have been in exploitative situations.

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_02]: That doesn't make them kind of any less interesting or dynamic.

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, you know, it just means that, that they got themselves into bad situations.

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_03]: It, having lived through that in, in my very formative years, uh, there, I have some, some stories that I will not tell because they are very graphic, you know, just stuff that I've, I've personally, personally witnessed with, with some of those bands.

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_03]: There was, there was one with Guns N' Roses that was, uh, was, was really extreme, but.

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_03]: And so it's an interesting thing to kind of examine, you know, why, why is the groupie role a safe way for, for all of us to kind of explore that idea of, of sexual submission, right?

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Especially given the times that we're living in, the things that are coming out and, and, uh, the, these, these titanic shifts in, in the way the world would, would kind of look at so much of what happened then.

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_03]: But, but that, that, the groupie and, and that, that idea that, that sits with us all about the fantasy, about that submission, you know, it feels like a universal thing that you're tapping into too.

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think, oh, sorry, go on.

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_05]: No, you go on, hang on.

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, yeah, I, I think so.

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that, um, especially for women, I mean, there's, there's other, um, uh, amazing, like there was a TV show that came out, um, not that long ago that explored, um, these similar things of, of kind of consent and personhood and how complicated it is called I May Destroy You.

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that, um, I think that, um, I think that especially women are examining and re-examining our kind of, um, experiences.

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that there is a universality to, um, to these different kind of power dynamics and, um, and to these different roles that people play in relationships at different times.

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I've been watching a ton of documentaries myself lately.

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_03]: The other night I just finished up World of Darkness, which was about, uh, the Vampire the Masquerade role-playing game and kind of its cultural impacts in the 90s and beyond.

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_03]: And the one takeaway for me there is, is the look, right?

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Nothing defines it more than Tim Bradstreet's artwork.

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_03]: I love Tim Bradstreet's artwork.

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Right?

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_03]: And I know he gets lots of friends to pose as the models for the rough sketches to kind of create the basic beats of the characters he wants to create.

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_03]: And I was curious, Tula, I was reading about how you use photographic references yourself.

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_03]: So, so did you have friends model?

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_03]: How did you put that together?

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Like the, the, uh, the look for, for both the groupies and the band?

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_05]: So when, when I do work, especially sequential work, um, kind of relying heavily on, um, photo reference, um, you kind of do need to like set scenes out and pose people and go and, and I'm terrible at that.

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm, I'm just really bad at doing it.

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_05]: So I don't do that at all.

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_05]: Um, but I, but I use found photos, um, for most of the stuff I do.

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_05]: And then, um, I just kind of work within that.

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_05]: I kind of, the found photos that inspire me are kind of like the base for something and then they become something else.

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_05]: So I think that's the easiest way for me to explain it.

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_05]: Um, I take a lot of inspiration from imagery I find online and film as well.

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_05]: And, um, with, with groupies, it was so, it was so easy to place these characters in this setting and draw them because of the rich story that Helen's, um, written, but also, you know, like the wealth of like photography and stuff that's out there to, to view.

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_05]: So, um, it was super, super easy working with that.

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_05]: But, um, we kind of had, had an idea of, um, what, what kind of, um, facial features we might want each character to have moving forward.

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_05]: So you might see a little bit of Jane Seymour in there and, uh, excuse me.

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm trying to think of who else I used.

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_05]: Um, it's all very loose though.

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_05]: Um, but yeah, it's always found images for me.

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_03]: It is.

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's a really interesting visual contrast from my preconceived notion of what the environment even is like, right?

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_03]: I've done everything.

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_03]: And I mean, everything that you could do on the tech end of things, except sound, fuck sound.

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_03]: I hate a bunch.

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_03]: That sounds terrible, but I tend to think about it being a really chaotic environment, but it, it also is ordered chaos.

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_03]: It's methodical, mathematical in its position.

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_03]: You, you know, everything has to move in a very linear pattern from one day to the next, because it has to be that way.

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_03]: And this is a very loose artistic interpretation.

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I described it as kind of wet or hazy, you know, a fever dream as if the whole experience is, is, is a bit like a trip.

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_03]: And I know to some extent that fits your, your larger body of work, but it also seems more exaggerated.

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_03]: It seems a step beyond.

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_03]: So, so why was that presentation important to how you wanted to set up the story?

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, when, you know, the, the thing that piqued my interest when I first started talking, telling about this was things set in the satanic panic, because I find that whole environment and time fascinating and stuff that was going on.

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_05]: It was totally crazy.

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_05]: But then when you think about what was happening with these bands and watching them and the drugs they were taking, it's kind of reminiscent of this kind of crazy, psychedelic, hazy, ethereal time.

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_05]: Like, even, even when I look back to films of that time, that they have certain color, like you think about the psychedelicness, which is very bright and stuff.

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_05]: But actually, when you watch your movies from the time or stock, stock footage, everything's kind of not quite defined properly.

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's always a little bit pea green, I think it's kind of very strange.

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_05]: So, I mean, the way I draw anyway, with like the powdered graphite charcoal and kind of mixing things up and not having like easily recognizable lines, that, that kind of fits into that anyway.

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_05]: So it was very easy for me to like ramp that up a little bit and just go more crazy and have more fun with it.

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_05]: But so it ended up feeling really natural.

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_05]: And then like, I might send something back to Helen and she'd be like, oh, more color or do this more.

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_05]: Like, yeah.

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like the way that you have painted it and drawn it as well, considering that all the issues are coming from the perspective of the girls.

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like since they are living their life in this kind of drugged out haze, it really does increase that feeling of being in their point of view in a way that I just find so beautiful.

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it was a joy to move through visually for me because the panels sort of act as these nice visual bumpers of a sort, which I hadn't seen it quite done like that before.

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_03]: When I was reading it, it makes me think of sort of being really drunk and kind of banging sort of into a panel.

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Like you're banging off a wall or something like that.

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_03]: That's crazy.

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_05]: Thanks.

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, that's exactly what I, how we would want someone to feel reading it.

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_05]: We want people to feel a little bit messed up and disorientated.

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_05]: And did I actually just see that?

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_06]: Nailed it.

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_06]: Tripped out.

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_03]: All right.

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's take a quick break.

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_03]: After a string of unexplained disappearances in the southern parts of the United States, retired Detective Clint searches for his white trash brother.

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_03]: While searching for him, he ends up being abducted by aliens.

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_03]: He is now in the arena for Big Gun's Stupid Rednecks, an intergalactic cable's newest hit show, which puts him and other humans in laser gun gladiatorial combat.

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_03]: And his brother is the reigning champion with 27 kills.

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_03]: That's the premise for a new book from Band of Barnes, Big Gun's Stupid Rednecks.

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_03]: I got a chance to see an advanced preview of this book.

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_03]: And being from the south, honestly, I was a bit skeptical going in.

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_03]: But they won me over and nothing is more powerful than an initially skeptic convert in my book.

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_03]: In Jimmy's words, Big Gun's Stupid Rednecks is many things, but it isn't subtle.

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_03]: It tells you exactly what it is up front.

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Then it delivers with a great premise, fantastic art and a whole mess of fun.

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_03]: I had a great time reading Big Gun's Stupid Rednecks.

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_03]: And what I thought was going to be an indictment of redneck culture quickly showed it was actually a love letter.

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_03]: A family mystery, brother pitted against brother, aliens, fighting for profit in a big arena.

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_03]: This truly has it all.

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's get back to the show.

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, the other thing that stands out as a former lighting designer is how flat the contrast is overall.

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_03]: There's some key lighting on the faces, which really accentuate them.

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_03]: But there's no backlight really that much.

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_03]: And fill light is pretty minimal.

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_03]: And the color palette is straight.

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_03]: It's almost like you went back and looked at what does rock and roll stage lighting look like?

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Here's a Lee 101, a 113, a 119, a 128, and everyone's favorite Congo blue, which really isn't blue at all.

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_03]: It's more of that deep magenta color.

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_03]: But how did you guys want to go about setting the mood with color and light specifically?

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I think, I mean, when I was speaking to Helen, we were kind of all like psychedelic.

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_05]: Just make it look crazy.

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_05]: But actually, what you were just mentioning is the way I draw.

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_05]: It's my art style.

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_05]: I tend to, I have the pencil and padded graphite, which is scanned, and then the digital color on top.

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_05]: But I'm always overlaying watercolors and washes.

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_05]: So it tends to kind of like dumb everything down.

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_05]: And then I bring things out of that.

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_05]: So I tend to not really draw with like a definitive light source, which I feel like I really should.

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_05]: Because like a lot of people do it so well.

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_05]: But I don't do that.

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_05]: And maybe it's something I'll experiment with in the future.

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_05]: But I kind of like, I like looking at the line rather than the shape, if that makes sense.

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, totally.

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_03]: I dig it.

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_03]: And I want to get a little bit into your background, Helen, as a documentarian.

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_03]: So I know you have a background in documentary film.

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_03]: So have either of you, are either of you Die Antwerp fans?

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Do you know who they are?

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if you've, if either of you have seen the documentary that just came out.

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_03]: It's called Zeph, the story of Die Antwerp.

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_03]: No.

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Highly recommend it.

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_03]: I watched it earlier this week.

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm a big fan of theirs.

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_03]: It was directed by John Day, who spent five years documenting their lives.

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_03]: And then cinematographer Roger Ballin, he did all the cinematography for it.

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_03]: He's a surrealist photographer who spent a lot of time in South Africa, done their videos,

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_03]: and is probably the biggest influence of theirs visually.

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_03]: It's this truly excellent hybridization of traditional documentary techniques mixed with,

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_03]: I would call them visionary artistic vignettes that are mixed throughout, that are set up like

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_03]: music videos.

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_03]: And I had read groupies earlier that night and probably couldn't help but see these connections

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_03]: in the narrative approach between these two things.

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_03]: But it feels like everything is set up almost as a document, a documentary to chronicle the

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_03]: journeys of this, these girls.

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's a really fascinating perspective because normally you'd expect it to be from the perspective

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_03]: of the rock stars.

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_03]: So how intentional was setting it up more like a document?

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Or am I just reading that in because of cross-referencing exposure?

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_02]: No, it's a really interesting question.

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a really interesting question.

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I need like a second to digest it.

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, in terms of the point of you being the girls, that was always going to be the case

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_02]: because I feel like the rock stars are well explored and, you know, that people can go

[00:33:24] [SPEAKER_02]: to other things to learn what a rock star thinks about having a groupie, you know, rather than

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_02]: what a groupie feels about having a rock star.

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_02]: But in terms of the documentary feel, I guess the way that I write, I'm always thinking about

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_02]: the complete picture.

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm always thinking about the complete story and trying to ensure that everything is set

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_02]: up all the time and that things move in a natural way.

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_02]: It's really important to me that cause and effect feels as naturalistic as possible in

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_02]: terms of the decision that people are making and why they're making them.

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Even if we don't tell you why they're doing it, it should feel organic that they're doing

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_02]: it like that.

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_02]: So I do spend an awful lot of time just, I would look like I'm just frittering away time listening

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_02]: to Led Zeppelin and staring into space.

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_02]: But I'm kind of trying to imagine in as complete a way as possible what one girl will do and

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_02]: feel about this situation.

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And so that kind of has, I don't know, maybe you could equate it to a kind of documentary

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_02]: style where you're, in my head, I'm watching them play all of this out and then giving them

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_02]: their kind of section.

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Is that intrinsic to your work in general or more just your approach to this project?

[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I've never really thought about it before, but it's how I work in general.

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I spend a lot of time kind of imagining all the little bits in between that might drive

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_02]: somebody to do something.

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Without giving too much away, there's also a supernatural force at play, which gives the

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_03]: musicians in the band a bit of a pass in a way for their bad behavior.

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_03]: I know you both share a love of the horror genre, but I guess what I'm thinking, it wouldn't

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_03]: have been necessary.

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Their story would have been fine, standalone, without.

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_03]: So why did you want to incorporate?

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I liked it.

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Don't get me wrong.

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Not a criticism.

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Just being curious here.

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_03]: So why did you want to incorporate a supernatural element into that?

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I think we're both such massive horror fans.

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_02]: That that's really just where we go straight away.

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Like Lisa was saying earlier about the satanic panic, like we're very firmly in that era,

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_02]: though it feels so kind of right to have an energy in it that, you know, could bring

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_02]: you to a kind of Rosemary's baby Mephisto waltz kind of, kind of area, but, you know, turned

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_02]: up to 11 and as pulpy as possible.

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_03]: What did satanic panic look like for you both?

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Because I know growing up in the South in America in a conservative household where I

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_03]: had to hide playing D&D, for instance.

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_03]: It was it was a very real thing.

[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I was taught to never discuss a lady's age, but did it play a significant

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_03]: role in your lives growing up?

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Or was it just something you're enamored of?

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I am of the age that I would have been right in the middle of it.

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm nearly 50, 49.

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_05]: So if I was in America, it would have played a huge part in what was going on.

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_05]: Um, but for me, I didn't really experience it at the time when I was young.

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I was kind of, you know, my favorite movie was like Lord of the Rings animated and

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_05]: Empire Strikes Back and I'd play like RPGs and then go out on my BMX.

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_05]: So I was doing all that kind of stuff.

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_05]: But I just had no idea about the stuff that was going on with, you know, Judas Priest and

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_05]: all the records being played backwards and caught.

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_05]: And then kind of later on the West Memphis Free.

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's only something I've come to understand later on in life, like looking back and having

[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_05]: a fascination with all of that and how things were dealt with.

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_05]: And that, that incredible documentary, I can't remember what it was called on Netflix about,

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_05]: which touches on the satanic panic, but it's about the kind of mass hallucination of school

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_05]: children being abused.

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_05]: Which one is it?

[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_05]: It's, it's really good, but it's, it's all about, yeah, it's, it's all about kind of

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_05]: suggestions, suggestion by police and authorities.

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_05]: And what we know now, like how easy it is to get false confessions when you're dealing with

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_05]: children or people that can be influenced easily or anyone really under a certain amount of

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_05]: stress and pressure.

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_05]: So, you know, look at, looking back at that time, it's absolutely fascinating.

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_05]: And I think it could very easily happen again.

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_05]: It's kind of, I think there's a, there's a lot to be said about religion and communities

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_05]: and how they deal with things that are different.

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, I think it's secular.

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_05]: It's like the, these kinds of fears and ideas that people have, we tend to not always learn

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_05]: from the past.

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_05]: And, um, I just find it fascinating.

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think, um, so we didn't have satanic panic as such here, but we did have, um, the

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_02]: video nasty, um, kind of uproar.

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_02]: So, I mean, to the point that, uh, so there was, I think there was like 39 banned films,

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_02]: um, in the video rental era, um, in the late eighties.

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And I mean, police were seizing videotapes, um, of, of films that when you, some of them,

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_02]: when you look back at when you actually watch the movie now, you, you can't believe that

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_02]: it got banned.

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_02]: It kind of got banned because it's, uh, you know, because its artwork was too lurid really.

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, and so you had these kinds of hysterical, um, moral people protecting everybody, protecting

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_02]: the children from these videotapes and, and they were seized by the police and they were

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_02]: banned.

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Some of them are still banned, I think.

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, so yeah, in, in, in a similar time we had, um, we had our own hysteria, um, although,

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_02]: uh, not quite to the same, uh, you know, the satanic panic has got this amazing kind of

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_02]: iconography to it, I think.

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, you know that even though of course it was terrible, it, it looks amazing on film.

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_02]: It looks amazing in comic books.

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_03]: It was super weird to live it because I grew up in a Baptist church and I vividly remember

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_03]: setting in a youth group and playing Led Zeppelin songs backwards, um, to, to try to find some

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_03]: hidden message.

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_03]: And again, you, you find something you're desperately looking for, right?

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's where suggestion comes in and it plays such a big role in this and it, and it

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_03]: is linked to the supernatural element in the book, which, which definitely read a bit Nosferatu

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_03]: to me, but perhaps that's because I'm predisposed to see any rock vampire thing as, as a big

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Anne Rice fan.

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, I, I love the rock version of Lestat.

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_03]: So did either of you have any other horror influences that, that worked their way into the DNA of it?

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_05]: Horror, horror influences.

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Horror specifically.

[00:41:15] Yeah.

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_05]: One, 100%.

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_05]: There's like so much stuff in there.

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_05]: It's, I always kind of want to go, go to like the amazing, like intellectual horror that I

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_05]: want to talk about this point, but the thing that always comes to the forefront of a mind

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_05]: is trick or treat.

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Great.

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_05]: Which our story is like way darker than that.

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_05]: But, um, whenever I think about like horror, horror fantasy of that time, I always think

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_05]: about trick or treat.

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_05]: It's just, it's super fun.

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_05]: Um, but yeah, there's, there's kind of like a lot of like 70s psychedelic film stuff there

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_05]: for me.

[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_05]: Like, um, my, my Lemsip brain is going mushy at the moment.

[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_05]: But, um, is, is it like Knight Riders?

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_05]: The, the psychedelic 70s when you know that kind of like where the film is like, the, the

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_05]: stock footage is kind of like pea green again.

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_05]: And, um, the, um, Hollywood Babylon guy.

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_05]: Um, I can't believe I'm forgetting names.

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_05]: Who is the Hollywood Babylon guy?

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm terrible at names as well, but.

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_02]: He wanted to say Angus.

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_02]: He wasn't.

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not ACDC.

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_02]: He was involved in performance as well, was he?

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, he was.

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_05]: He did a lot of like crazy, satanic, um, psychedelic stuff around that time.

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_05]: Hang on.

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_05]: I am looking now.

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_05]: I can't, I can't believe, I can't remember his name.

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sure when you say it, I'll be like, why didn't I think of that?

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_05]: You'll, you'll know him.

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_06]: He's super, um.

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_06]: Um.

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_02]: While we're looking, I'll say there's also a lot of like giallo stuff.

[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Like a lot of like Italian, like hyper.

[00:43:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Colourful kind of.

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Just.

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Psychedelic, uh, thrillers from the seventies as well.

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_02]: That for me, at least play a massive, a massive role in the.

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Nexus of the story.

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_05]: 100% for me as well.

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_05]: Um, it's Kenneth Anger.

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_05]: Um.

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_05]: So there's a lot of his stuff that that's in there for me, but also like Helen was saying,

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_05]: like one of my favorite directors is Dario Gento and all the yellow stuff from that time.

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_05]: I absolutely adore.

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_05]: Um, so like you'd, you'd be crazy not to be influenced by Suspiria with when you're dealing

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_05]: with something kind of like, so psychedelic.

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_05]: So there's a lot of like one tone reds in the comic and you know, that kind of extreme color

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_05]: and it's all the Gento for me.

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:44:04] [SPEAKER_02]: There's also a lot of just like tripped out stuff like altered states and the trip and

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_02]: just, yeah.

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Any kind of really drugged out weird cinema.

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I think almost any of it, you can, you can assume that we have it in the mix, you know,

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_02]: in our mind.

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, there's a, an exploration too that I found really fascinating of the role of sacrifice.

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, and it, it fascinated me as a trained anthropologist.

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_03]: My cohost, Jimmy recently chatted with Alex Pactadol and he was talking about being interested

[00:44:37] [SPEAKER_03]: in the societal importance of sacrifice, you know, down throughout different cultures,

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_03]: which sent me down this massive rabbit hole of exploring the literature on it.

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_03]: And for anyone curious, I highly recommend violence and the sacred from Rene Girard, but

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_03]: there's a balance between the sacred and the profane that it, that is inherent into the text

[00:44:57] [SPEAKER_03]: that you seem to sort of be exploring the idea of here.

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_03]: So, so what about sacrifice was fascinating?

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, I think for me, at least the, the sacrificial part of it is really important because I think

[00:45:13] [SPEAKER_02]: that, um, in the, in the real world of rock and roll, um, sacrifices, it seems are kind

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_02]: of made in a broad way. Um, and it's often the, the people who are benefiting the most are not

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_02]: the ones making the sacrifices as in they're not, they're not the ones giving anything up particularly,

[00:45:39] [SPEAKER_02]: which I find really interesting. I find it really interesting that often the kind of musicians

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_02]: and the stars, they have to sacrifice. Um, certainly girls, um, in particular, um, women are, are fed into the

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of music machine and they, um, have to make sacrifices or, or they, they give a bit of themselves.

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_02]: They, they can lose something. Um, but the people who benefit the most don't. And I think that that's a

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_02]: very, you know, that's a, a very real kind of, um, and, and long-term, um, uh, phenomenon. Um, and it's,

[00:46:26] [SPEAKER_02]: but it's also kind of so easy to turn into something. I mean, cause it, it, there is something

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_02]: horrific there sometimes. So it's very easy to kind of ramp that up to its most extreme, um,

[00:46:42] [SPEAKER_02]: most extreme, uh, like to explore it in the most extreme way. Sorry, I don't have my words today,

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_02]: but, um, and so, and so to me that, that kind of is, is really the, the cornerstone of the story.

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. It's, you know, the main part.

[00:47:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I'm curious about audience because, okay, there's the, the corporate fat rats and yeah,

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_03]: they're the ones really profiting, but, but the ones who, who take away the true experience of music

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_03]: is the audience. And yes, I can speak from being, you know, a former tech, former roadie, um, that

[00:47:20] [SPEAKER_03]: the toll is really, really, really high on all of us. One thing that never gets really touched upon

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_03]: that much. And I'm not saying that that's an excuse for their bad behavior, but musicians and

[00:47:31] [SPEAKER_03]: the toll it takes on them because what most people don't realize is the vast majority of people when

[00:47:37] [SPEAKER_03]: they get into it, um, aren't Mick Jagger. They're not that, that charismatic presence that just

[00:47:44] [SPEAKER_03]: carries everything. They're living up to an expectation. Um, and that expect expectation,

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_03]: they get trapped in and that cycle in between what feeds them, which is the show and the, the drain of,

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_03]: of all that time in between and, and the audience and the groupie and everyone building them up to be

[00:48:07] [SPEAKER_03]: something that they're not. And then they try to live up to it. And that's where vice comes in.

[00:48:11] [SPEAKER_03]: That's the drugs, you know, that's the sex and, and everything like that. So are we going to,

[00:48:18] [SPEAKER_03]: as the story progresses, and I don't want you to give anything away, but is, is the audience

[00:48:24] [SPEAKER_03]: going to be, you know, play a role in the story as we move, move along? Um, the audience of the

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_03]: band, do you mean? Yeah. Just, just as, just as a character, as a presence. I didn't know if you

[00:48:38] [SPEAKER_03]: were, you were thinking about playing with, with, with the audience into it. Um, asking them.

[00:48:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Go ahead. Um, I definitely think that the, um, that the, the fact that, um, the rock stars are kind of,

[00:48:55] [SPEAKER_02]: um, put in a position of, of, of reaching for more, um, all the time is something that we,

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_02]: we kind of play with. Um, but in terms of the focus of the story, it's definitely, um, the,

[00:49:11] [SPEAKER_02]: the groupies themselves, but, you know, they also kind of stand in for all of us, because even though

[00:49:19] [SPEAKER_02]: they're living the life to more of a more extreme way, um, it's because they love the music so much.

[00:49:26] [SPEAKER_02]: That's something that I think, um, we can, we forget really easily when we're talking about,

[00:49:31] [SPEAKER_02]: about groupies that often these girls were really on the bleeding edge of, of the scene and of

[00:49:36] [SPEAKER_02]: everything. Um, so they're kind of the, the, uh, pinnacle in a certain way of the audience's kind

[00:49:45] [SPEAKER_02]: of closeness to, to the band. They're as close as, as it gets, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. I hadn't thought

[00:49:52] [SPEAKER_03]: about it like that. Well, I understand you, you both have known each other for quite some time. I,

[00:49:57] [SPEAKER_03]: I just realized I forgot to ask, how did all of this kick off to begin with?

[00:50:03] [SPEAKER_05]: It, it was, I mean, like, I think it was at Thought Bubble, actually, the festival in the UK.

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_05]: We were, we were like out with all the guests having curry and we just hit it off, didn't we?

[00:50:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly.

[00:50:16] [SPEAKER_05]: We couldn't stop chatting to another about horror.

[00:50:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly. It was just a movie after movie after movie. I think it was, yeah, one of those,

[00:50:24] [SPEAKER_02]: uh, one of those conversations. And then when, um, uh, when groupies started to kind of, um,

[00:50:31] [SPEAKER_02]: kind started to grow as an idea, it seemed like such a natural, um, kind of combination,

[00:50:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I think, um, like, because it deals with so much stuff that we're both really interested in,

[00:50:44] [SPEAKER_02]: in a style that we both adore. So. Yeah. Okay. 100%.

[00:50:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, um, one moment that just really, really stuck out to me as grounded in the times where the

[00:50:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Polaroids, um, I won't elaborate on their role, but yeah, as I was a professional photographer for

[00:51:03] [SPEAKER_03]: over a decade until I had a big autoimmune thing hit. And those things are just like any other kind

[00:51:10] [SPEAKER_03]: of photographic print. And they're so emblematic of that era. And there's just like that little tiny

[00:51:15] [SPEAKER_03]: slice of square perfection, but with room at the bottom to always leave a note on almost inviting

[00:51:22] [SPEAKER_03]: you to do, but they also are so disposable, which feels like a good analogy to the groupies themselves.

[00:51:28] [SPEAKER_03]: And I absolutely adore their inclusion in that. Um, was that a parallel you were trying to make

[00:51:34] [SPEAKER_02]: there? Um, I feel like the Polaroids came out of almost like a more, um, uh, a more nuts and bolts

[00:51:42] [SPEAKER_02]: thing in terms of, I had, uh, or we have quite a sprawling kind of past and we were looking to

[00:51:51] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of introduce everybody in the most elegant way. But when you say it is actually quite a

[00:51:57] [SPEAKER_02]: appropriate, um, uh, appropriate kind of form.

[00:52:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, how did you go about putting together the girls themselves, you know, with personalities,

[00:52:09] [SPEAKER_03]: were there certain things you were trying to look for within the group?

[00:52:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, for me, I wanted, um, the girls to each be really distinct, um, and each have their kind of

[00:52:25] [SPEAKER_02]: own thing going on. Um, as the series progresses, you're actually going to be, um, experiencing a

[00:52:32] [SPEAKER_02]: different groupies point of view, um, for, for every issue. Um, so in a certain way, each one of them

[00:52:41] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of is, is experiencing womanhood and girlhood and all of the issues that we're looking at in a

[00:52:48] [SPEAKER_02]: different way from a different angle. Um, so I, you know, obviously Lisa was building the,

[00:52:55] [SPEAKER_02]: the kind of visual, but for me from their personalities, um, I just kind of worked out

[00:53:00] [SPEAKER_02]: backstories to help me make, um, five women who were as distinct as possible in kind of perspective

[00:53:07] [SPEAKER_02]: whilst also like making sense within the world.

[00:53:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay. Is the five issues done or do you picture a greater arc? Personally, I'm hoping there's

[00:53:18] [SPEAKER_03]: one with roadies, but you know, that's just, yeah.

[00:53:22] [SPEAKER_01]: You should write the roadie story. You've got the, uh, you've got the, the experience.

[00:53:29] [SPEAKER_03]: I, I'm noted, I'm, I'm such a, I've lived so many amazing things and I'm such a terrible

[00:53:35] [SPEAKER_03]: storyteller. Like that is, that is, that is the curse, um, of being me, but yeah.

[00:53:41] [SPEAKER_03]: So are there, are there plans for more or is, is that, that more or less for now that

[00:53:46] [SPEAKER_03]: that's kind of it?

[00:53:47] [SPEAKER_05]: I think, sorry, for me, I, I never say never when I love drawing something, but I know that,

[00:53:56] [SPEAKER_05]: um, in terms of the story, um, we've, we've kind of, I don't, I don't want to give anything

[00:54:04] [SPEAKER_05]: away. You, you, you tell color.

[00:54:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. I think that in terms of the story, we, we've definitely created something self-contained.

[00:54:15] [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, like Lisa says, like never say never, and it's such a fun world to write

[00:54:22] [SPEAKER_02]: and, you know, and yeah, just such a visually arresting world. I think it's fun all around.

[00:54:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, so definitely never say never, but this story is, is self-contained, even though I have

[00:54:35] [SPEAKER_02]: fallen in love with all of the girls. So I would happily write them forever.

[00:54:40] [SPEAKER_03]: In a way they live forever. That's the role of the groupies. It's just one incarnation again

[00:54:45] [SPEAKER_03]: and again and again, right?

[00:54:46] [SPEAKER_01]: That's it.

[00:54:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, it's a great ride. It's a dark and moody trip into a recess corner of the music industry

[00:54:52] [SPEAKER_03]: that creates an atmosphere almost of, of like a guilty pleasure, right? As you live

[00:54:57] [SPEAKER_03]: through the experience of these girls, it's a perfect addition to everyone's spooky season

[00:55:01] [SPEAKER_03]: reading list. It's dropping on October 22nd on Comixology. So everyone makes sure to check

[00:55:07] [SPEAKER_03]: it out. Um, what else have you got both coming up to it? I'm sure you're making preparations

[00:55:13] [SPEAKER_03]: and revving up for, for thought bubble in November.

[00:55:15] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. Um, I don't actually run for bubble anymore, but my heart is firmly there and I'm

[00:55:22] [SPEAKER_05]: with the guys, um, kind of giving them some support and stuff. So I'll, I'll be there doing

[00:55:27] [SPEAKER_05]: things. Um, there's New York comic con coming up, which we're both going to be at. And, um,

[00:55:33] [SPEAKER_05]: after that I'll be at Durham, North Carolina comic con and Luca. And then I think sign in

[00:55:44] [SPEAKER_05]: in Paris with Becky Cloonan after thought bubble. So it's like crazy travel for me at the moment.

[00:55:51] [SPEAKER_05]: I think Durham show. Um, I'm just trying to think. So, uh, North Carolina comic con. Um,

[00:56:01] [SPEAKER_05]: when is it? It's, I think it's, let me just think a moment. Ah, Lucas before it. So Lucas,

[00:56:07] [SPEAKER_05]: like the 31st of October, that's in Italy. And then I go there when I get back. So it'll be like

[00:56:12] [SPEAKER_05]: maybe the first or second weekend, first week in November. Holy cow. I should know better than

[00:56:20] [SPEAKER_03]: you. Cause that's just down the road from me. So I may pop by and say hello, but yeah,

[00:56:24] [SPEAKER_05]: I have family there. So I'll be there for a week hanging out. Nice. Well, Helen, what about you?

[00:56:30] [SPEAKER_03]: I know, uh, the promotional trail for groupies and then you're back out on the ice,

[00:56:35] [SPEAKER_03]: hanging out with puppies for a race. Is that?

[00:56:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I am supposed to hopefully be going to the auditorod this year, uh, for someone that I used to work

[00:56:45] [SPEAKER_02]: with. Yeah. But before that, um, a little bit less, um, less travel hectic. I will be at New York

[00:56:51] [SPEAKER_02]: comic con, um, and at thought bubble as well. Um, and then yeah, maybe in Alaska for February and

[00:56:58] [SPEAKER_02]: March. Wow.

[00:57:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Love Alaska.

[00:57:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Alaska in February. That's.

[00:57:04] [SPEAKER_02]: It's cold.

[00:57:05] [SPEAKER_03]: That's a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. I would imagine so. Where can people both, uh, find you online?

[00:57:11] [SPEAKER_05]: Um, I'm, uh, Chulalote on Instagram and my website is chulalote.com.

[00:57:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm super mega bot on Instagram and Twitter, a holdover from the old forum days. Um, and my website

[00:57:28] [SPEAKER_02]: is hellamalan.com.

[00:57:30] [SPEAKER_03]: That's okay. On the holdover because my personal email address is a personal holdover from my days

[00:57:35] [SPEAKER_03]: back on the road when people called me Mako as opposed to Byron. So I had a, I was, I was,

[00:57:43] [SPEAKER_03]: as it went, I was like lean and mean. So I was, I was a short fin Mako shark. These things

[00:57:50] [SPEAKER_03]: follow you and you, you can't, you can't ever shake them. It's terrible.

[00:57:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd say if it ain't broke, just let it, let it be.

[00:57:57] [SPEAKER_03]: It is what it is. I was actually, Tula, I was going back to your, your Insta and I saw the,

[00:58:02] [SPEAKER_03]: the Eisner video for Sumna and, uh, it's probably one of the few times that Will Dennis is ever in

[00:58:09] [SPEAKER_03]: anything in social media that's not of a Warhammer miniature. So that, that was a rarity indeed.

[00:58:15] [SPEAKER_05]: Bless them. I love it.

[00:58:18] [SPEAKER_03]: But thank you both for, for hanging out with me on the show today. It's been a lot of fun.

[00:58:21] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:58:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, this is Byron O'Neill on behalf of all of us at Comic Book Yeti. Thanks for tuning in and

[00:58:28] [SPEAKER_03]: we will see you next time. Take care, everybody.

[00:58:30] [SPEAKER_03]: This is Byron O'Neill, one of your hosts of the Cryptid Creator Corner, brought to you by

[00:58:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Comic Book Yeti. We hope you've enjoyed this episode of our podcast.

[00:58:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Please rate, review, subscribe, all that good stuff. It lets us know how we're doing and more

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[00:58:50] [SPEAKER_00]: If you enjoyed this episode of the Cryptid Creator Corner, maybe you would enjoy our sister podcast

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