Max Hoven talks Liquid Kill

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Your ears do not deceive you. You have just entered the Cryptid Creator Corner brought to you by your friends at Comic Book Yeti.

[00:00:07] [SPEAKER_00]: So without further ado, let's get on to the interview.

[00:00:13] [SPEAKER_03]: When we started this podcast, we knew inclusion and diversity were going to be at the forefront of what we wanted to do with it.

[00:00:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Now two and a half years in that mission hits home for me.

[00:00:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Being disabled myself, I know the likelihood of me getting to a con or doing frankly most of the other things that can bring the comic community together is

[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_03]: not likely in the cards, but this podcast is connected to me with people in ways I never would have imagined possible.

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_03]: I know the similar challenges disabled creators face trying to get their work seen.

[00:00:43] [SPEAKER_03]: So it should come as no surprise that I'm excited about the new unseen, unheard disability and neurodivergence anthology on Kickstarter.

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_03]: This 64 page 12 story anthology covers a wide range of genres, including slice of life horror sci-fi fantasy and romance

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_03]: and features at least 50% of each creative team being comprised of people who are neurodivergent or have a disability.

[00:01:08] [SPEAKER_03]: I know that editors and can assure you it's in good hands and after having seen a few sample pages myself,

[00:01:15] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm excited to see the rest of what all these amazing creators have cooked up.

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_03]: If they do a second one, you best believe I'm subvitting.

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll drop a link in the show notes for you or you can find them on Kickstarter.

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Search for unseen, unheard.

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Please consider supporting it and our community.

[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Everyone deserves to be seen.

[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks.

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Y'all, Jimmy, the chaos goblin strikes again.

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_03]: I should have known better than a mention I was working on my DC Universe meets Ravenloft hybrid D&D campaign on social media.

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_03]: My bad.

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_03]: He goes and tags a bunch of comics creators we know.

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_03]: And now I have to get it in gear and whip this campaign into shape so we could start playing.

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Another friend chimes in.

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Are you going to make maps?

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_03]: It's fair to say it's been a while since I put something together.

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_03]: So I guess?

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Question mark.

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_03]: It was then that I discovered Arkham Forge.

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_03]: If you don't know who Arkham Forge is, they have everything you need to make your TT RPG more fun and immersive,

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_03]: allowing you to build, play and export animated maps, including in person fog of war capability,

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_03]: that let your players interact with maps as the adventure unfolds while you, the DM, get the full picture.

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Now I'm set to easily build high res animated maps, saving myself precious time and significantly adding nuance to our campaign.

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_03]: That's a win every day in my book.

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Check them out at arkhamforge.com and use the discount code Yeti5 to get $5 off.

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll drop a link in the show notes for you.

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_03]: And big thanks to Arkham Forge for partnering with our show.

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_03]: I think I'm going to make Jimmy play a goblin warlock just to get even.

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Hello everyone and welcome to today's episode of the Cryptic Creator Corner.

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm Byron O'Neill, your host for today's Comics Creator Chat.

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's going to be a good one.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm joined by a newcomer to the show and half of the comics writing duo Max Huffin,

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_03]: who has a fantastic new book hitting shelves with massive publishing called Liquid Kill.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_03]: The first arc is, well, the single issues are in the wild.

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_03]: You can go ahead and pick those up.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Being collected into a trade with Arc2 maybe down the road, right?

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's definitely happening when it releases is still up in the air,

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_04]: but most likely fall of winter this year.

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Awesome. Well, Max, welcome and thanks for chatting comments with me today.

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_03]: It's great to have you on.

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, of course. And thanks for having me.

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Of course. Well, I want to start with how you and Aaron, your writing partner,

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_03]: sort of kind of met because I'm always interested in writing duos

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_03]: and sort of how that works.

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_03]: So how did that journey start for you both?

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, interesting.

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_04]: I'll give the piece I've never said before.

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_04]: So some people may have known that Crowe and I met in high school,

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_04]: but we actually started writing together in high school.

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_04]: We were both.

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_04]: We met in a journal, a journalism class.

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_04]: And in our journalism class, they have edited.

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_04]: You're kind of there's it was like separated into two different years

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_04]: to where it's like journalism one, journalism two.

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_04]: And as you go into journalism, two, if you do well,

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_04]: you become an editor of something, an editor of whatever,

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_04]: layout design and both him and I didn't make the cut for anything.

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_04]: And they just made up a role where they said, you are both

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_04]: dual editors of humor.

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_04]: So we both, for whatever reason, glass clowns or whatever,

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_04]: they just made up this role and we became the writers of this

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_04]: the school newspaper writing comedy, even though we don't know

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_04]: didn't know how to write comedy, could not write jokes.

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_04]: And I actually drew cartoons.

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm not an artist, but that was sort of how we met.

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_04]: And we actually ended up making videos together out

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_04]: through that class, we ended up moving more into videography.

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_04]: And we ended up heading the video department for a little bit.

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_04]: And we made these skits and stuff for the school like public service

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_04]: announcements and things like that.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_04]: And then after high school ended, before we were going to go out

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_04]: to our separate colleges, we wrote and tried to do like co-direct

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_04]: along with another person, a feature film with starring all our friends

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_04]: in high school.

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_04]: And that was really how we cut our teeth as creative partners.

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_04]: And then we both went our separate ways.

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_04]: And for about five to six years, actually longer than that,

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_04]: four years in college and then another like three to four years outside of college.

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_04]: We were just separated. I traveled the world.

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_04]: He did his own thing.

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_04]: He actually went to school for creative writing and journalism.

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_04]: And then we met back up years later and decided to get back into writing

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_04]: together again.

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_04]: And that's how we started our career as comic writers.

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_04]: We sort of both wrote comics and screenplays at the same time

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_04]: and just started from ground zero, trying to work our way up in both industries.

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_04]: And here we are today.

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_03]: OK, that's awesome. Yeah, that's way off.

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_03]: I was in my head.

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_03]: I was thinking Hoven and Crow is like a personal injury law firm.

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Because people will ask me that whenever they see my email address

[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_04]: or like Hoven Crow, are you a lawyer?

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm like, yeah, no.

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I was back and forth with my co-host Jimmy,

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_03]: who actually is a personal injury attorney.

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, maybe that that illustration was just a little bit in my head.

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_04]: But I'm quite the same.

[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_04]: What's that? I can either, you know, solve your

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't even know like fake law terms.

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_03]: You've been injured.

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Or I can write you a ridiculous comic book depends.

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I'll have to tell the Matt, the head yeti, comic book yeti,

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_03]: too that I don't know if both of you are, but you're St. Louis based, right?

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. And although I haven't seen that comic book yeti is St. Louis based,

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_04]: I've never been I've never tried to contact or anything

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_04]: or delve further into where at in St. Louis or anything like that.

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_04]: So I don't I don't know who's the head behind it.

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_04]: But I've heard of comic book yeti for years

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_04]: and been reading, you know, and tried to even get a review years ago.

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_04]: I believe for like a comic that are for our web comic.

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think at the time, whoever I'd reached out to is just the website

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_04]: that said, you know, reach out here. Yeah.

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think I just didn't get any kind of response.

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_04]: I can't remember. But yeah, yeah.

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, we're all sort of over the place.

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm in North Carolina.

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_03]: My co-host Jimmy is outside of Philadelphia, Matt St. Louis.

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Wells is in Chicago.

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Everybody's we're all over the place, but.

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Have you guys how long have you guys all been together?

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, people are in and out because we're totally volunteer.

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah. So, you know, people will drop in.

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_03]: There are people who like most of the people what they end up doing

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_03]: and Matt actually gave me the word of caution when I first started

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_03]: because I just came in sort of starting to review stuff.

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_03]: And I really I don't like the review end of things, to be honest with you,

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_03]: because I don't like busting people down who are, you know,

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_03]: trying to actually do something creative.

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_03]: So that's why I ended up doing the whole interview thing.

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_03]: But he's like, yeah, man, you're going to you're going to end up

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_03]: doing something in comics, whether that's writing or, you know,

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_03]: actually try to draw, which God helped me if I ever tried to draw.

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, and those people have gone on and are now like,

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_03]: you know, making comics, so they just don't have the time to devote to.

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. And I 100 percent get that.

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah. I mean, journalism is comics journalism.

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_03]: It's it's a little world and it's it's just a tough world

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_03]: because, you know, we're all juggling so many different things, life, family, blah,

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_03]: blah, blah. But nobody wants to hear about that.

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. They want to hear about Liquid Kill.

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, I was a big fan of your other project.

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_03]: It eats what feeds it.

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I grew up in the south and was living in Florida at the time

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_03]: that I ended up reading it.

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_03]: And that like moody, decrepit atmosphere that the book created

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_03]: was was absolutely stellar.

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_03]: So when I saw you were working on Liquid Kill,

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_03]: it was immediately something I was interested in.

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's kind of pitched as Ghost in a Shell meets John Wick.

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_03]: And on my read, that's pretty on point.

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_03]: The analogs that popped up into my head were kind of Aeon Flux meets Resident Evil.

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_03]: If that makes any sense.

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, sure.

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_03]: So what was kind of the germ of this?

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_03]: This.

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_04]: To give the longer version instead of the super short,

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_04]: it's originally started with a long time ago.

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_04]: One of the first stories I started writing was an exaggeration of a hotel I worked at.

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_04]: I worked at a historic old hotel in Yellowstone National Park.

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_04]: And the clientele of this hotel was a wide mixture of people.

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_04]: This hotel has a lot of interesting aspects about it.

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_04]: It's very old inside the National Park.

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_04]: They are not allowed to renovate to any sort of extreme.

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_04]: Everything has to stay in the authentic old style

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_04]: as if it was from the time period it was built, which was the 1800s.

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_04]: And on top of that, so there's no AC.

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_04]: There were no cell phone towers.

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_04]: It was a very off the grid feeling place.

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_04]: You felt like you're at an old era.

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_04]: And you also got people that are very wealthy and known for being elites

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_04]: throughout the real living world we're in that would book entire wings of the hotel

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_04]: or book the entire hotel, which is almost unheard of at a hotel like this.

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_04]: That's so it's booked the entire time it's open.

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_04]: It's only open a certain amount of time of the year because other than that,

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_04]: it's covered in snow.

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_04]: It's impossible to get to.

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_04]: It's very much like the shining the hotel there in Colorado.

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Or I can't remember where that took place, but yeah, it's the same theory

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_04]: where it's just one person there over the winter to maintain the property.

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_04]: And there's a bunch of mysterious aspects of it.

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_04]: There's of course, because of its age, there's parts of it that people don't go into

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_04]: that are just unused things that make sense in the 1800s,

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_04]: like storage for instead of refrigerators, they had ice boxes or whatever.

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_04]: There's just sections that are unused today, but rumors that they led to underground tunnels

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_04]: and things like that.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_04]: And I took the exaggerated thoughts of that while I was working out there

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_04]: and just started writing this kind of insane story as if it was if you went

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_04]: to extremes of this as if there was it was only open a certain time of year.

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_04]: It's used for these elitists who do strange, weird things throughout the hotel

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_04]: and they have underground layers to it that some of the people that are clientele

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_04]: or like guests at the hotel might know about and only the rich, rich, rich

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_04]: know about what really goes on underneath there.

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_04]: And upon writing that and then years and years later

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_04]: as Crow then became involved, it turned into a more sprawling story

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_04]: that took place even more exaggerated into the future.

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_04]: And once Gabriel Umazark came on board, he expanded even further into

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_04]: that's where you went from to get more of the Aeon flux feel and the ghosts in the shell.

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_04]: So story wise, it just started from personal experience, exaggerated.

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_04]: And then as the new people came involved, it then became more animated, so to speak.

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_04]: And kind of another interesting aspect of that is how Gabriel Umazark,

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_04]: who's the artist of the series, came on board was, as you know,

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_04]: he did it eats what feeds it for us.

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_04]: But he didn't immediately agree to it eats what feeds it whenever

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_04]: we first reached out to him.

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_04]: He he wanted it or we pitched him a different story.

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_04]: And he basically said you have two options.

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_04]: We can either do a cyberpunk sort of meant for teens.

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_04]: So we originally pitched him something that was very mature and very strange.

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_04]: And he said, what if like we went less extreme on the horror, less graphic?

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_04]: We can either do something paranormal, sort of supernatural.

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_04]: And that was where we pitched him that eats what feeds it.

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_04]: But he also said I'd also be willing to do a cyberpunk that's not quite as

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_04]: graphic, so to speak.

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_04]: He wanted it more trying to think the right word, not wholesome,

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_04]: but just more of your typical what people call like shonen manga kind of teen boy.

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_04]: That kind of thing.

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_04]: But after the success of it, he eats.

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_04]: He said, you know, I'm willing to go more dark with it and wild with it.

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Then we I was originally suggesting.

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_04]: And so once we sent him the script that I Crow and I had for liquid kill.

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_04]: He then was like, OK, and he added his own elements of how he envisioned it.

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Because we we gave him a sort of an open ended of like

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_04]: how far in the future you want it to be and how detailed

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_04]: do you want us to go into the lore of the actual science fiction of it?

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_04]: OK. And we allowed him to come up with

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_04]: sort of the the science of it.

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_04]: So a lot of the elements of how the machines work in this world

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_04]: and how the those who especially continue to read further into the further arcs.

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_04]: He was a lot involved in actually the the step by step

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_04]: mechanistic, I guess, so to speak, of how things work in this world.

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_03]: OK, I mean, that's beautiful.

[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_03]: I love that. I mean, comics are such a cool collaboration.

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's really neat that Gabriel was, you know, a part of building

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_03]: and filling in the world.

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's it's so funny and now makes so much more sense to me

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_03]: about the food service thing, because I have a note in here

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_03]: that I thought it was kind of an interesting narrative choice

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_03]: because the the topographical topographical background,

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_03]: especially after the first issue was so focused on the hotel itself,

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_03]: right, and the hotel manager.

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_03]: So we're getting way more development of him

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_03]: than anyone else on the team, except for Silla, you know,

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_03]: who had the lion share of the first issue.

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_03]: So it explains why you wanted to kind of take the focus away

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_03]: from the primary protagonist and antagonist there.

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I whenever it was originally written.

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_04]: I had it as sort of this sprawling mini series that a lot of

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_04]: that was mainly sort of the anti hero girls versus the villains

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_04]: and the the guests of the hotel were sort of the the in between

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_04]: and those were supposed to be the more human aspects of it.

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_04]: But I as you know, as someone that was a manager of a hotel,

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_04]: I also I didn't want to put myself into the story.

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_04]: But ultimately, the feedback I got from others,

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_04]: because especially this was one of the first stories I ever

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_04]: started trying to write as a professional writer.

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_04]: So I got a lot of feedback from people

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_04]: in the process of trying to write the initial script.

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_04]: And a lot of a lot of the feedback was you need someone

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_04]: that's grounded to the normal humans emotions of how to react

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_04]: to everything that's around here, rather than just basically bad

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_04]: versus bad, you need someone that's you need alien.

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_04]: If there's alien versus predator, you need the humans

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_04]: in between to sort of ground it for the reader.

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_04]: And so I did it's not like I wrote myself in there,

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_04]: but that character is supposed to be the one that it actually turns

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_04]: out to be sort of the level headed main character of the story

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_04]: as opposed to your typical hero's journey

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_04]: of the lead girls, so to speak, of the story.

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_03]: OK, yeah.

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, to give people a little bit better rundown of the plot,

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_03]: you know, you have that team of assassins or corporate terrorists

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_03]: kind of assaulting the privileged lead at this hotel.

[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, Kai, the group's leader is after her adopted father

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_03]: and that's Silla who rescued her from slavery

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_03]: and who has been taken hostage by the witch priest.

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_03]: I hope I get this right.

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Balak, we.

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, that's how it's pronounced.

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Cool, cool.

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_03]: And you got in the isolated hotel that and so I want to kind

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_03]: of get a little bit of focus on the team itself.

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_03]: You have Kai and Javier and SS and Matthias,

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_03]: which I think I'm missing one there, but yet definitely more

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_03]: of a Suicide Squad than Avengers.

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_03]: They're not all likable hero types.

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_03]: So assembling that team, what were you thinking about injecting them

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_03]: with in terms of like characteristics?

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_04]: So the way it was originally.

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Written each one of these characters is

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_04]: and those who read the series will see that at the end of each issue,

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_04]: we do sort of like a trading card,

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_04]: a explanation of sort of a background.

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_04]: What we call a stats page of each character.

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_04]: And from that you learn

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_04]: not just who they are, but how they play a part in Silla's

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_04]: militia or like assassin group, or we called it basically

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_04]: a private Legion.

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_02]: OK.

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_04]: And you learn that each one of them was essentially

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_04]: they're in the world that we're in is sort of evil everywhere.

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_04]: And each one of these girls is a slave of some kind,

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_04]: it wherever they're at and Silla or other people

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_04]: that are work with or under Silla throughout the years

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_04]: were rescued from their slavery or from whatever they were in

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_04]: and then joined his Legion.

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_04]: And in that act, they each have their own set of skills.

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_04]: And you can think about that as any anyone that trains under a master

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_04]: and they then go they train, they go out in the world,

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_04]: they have their specialties.

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_04]: And they the whole point of these girls is all they do is go around

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_04]: freeing people and killing the warlords.

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_04]: And in that process, they get injuries and some die.

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_04]: And but where we're at in this story, it's just a handful.

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_04]: And we deliberately just kind of throw you in the middle of it

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_04]: and let people sort of slowly learn what they

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_04]: their role in this world as you go further along deeper into the hotel.

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_04]: You learn more about what's going on here and about how these girls

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_04]: know each other.

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_04]: But they start dying pretty quick for those who haven't read it.

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Like the violence breaks out pretty fast.

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_04]: But the actual individual relationships between the two,

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_04]: you the the main two that Kai is kind of the main one

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_04]: that has a direct relationship with Silla

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_04]: more than just all of them knowing Silla like they may all

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_04]: like he's the master of the whole legion, but he didn't personally free all of them.

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_04]: But Kai, he did. He was one of the first, so to speak.

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_04]: There's another the braided haired

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_04]: sort of she's the true kind of commanding officer of this small group.

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_04]: She's another one that's sort of the leader of the pack

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_04]: who's making the kind of primary decisions with everybody

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_04]: who also has a direct relationship with Silla.

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_04]: And then the rest are we call them the twins,

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_04]: kind of the most visually and fun striking.

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Xavier has the four ponytails and doesn't wear a shirt.

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_04]: And that was based upon if when people read the stats page,

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_04]: they all come from different portions of the world.

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_04]: And so that character has an interesting aspect of where she's from.

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_04]: It's always cold and she's always hot.

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_04]: And so she doesn't wear a shirt.

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_04]: And so even in this cold place where they are now, she's unfazed by the weather.

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_04]: So we took her as if she's from Scandinavia or, you know, Russia,

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_04]: somewhere way up north and all the other characters are freed from somewhere else.

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_04]: And what you learn from each character is that they all

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_04]: they may have a birth name or no name.

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_04]: But whenever they're freed by Silla's army, they take the name of their captor.

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_04]: OK, so that's why they all have male names.

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Gotcha. And that's something that escapes some people.

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_04]: It's kind of the reveal at the end of issue one where

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_04]: he says to Kai as a girl after he frees her.

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_04]: She says whatever your name is like his name belongs to you.

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_04]: And like he may have had all these riches and glory, but you now have his name.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_04]: And now all of his his wealth goes to the people and you keep his name.

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, that kind of lore about the his squad, so to speak.

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_04]: And then but actually how these girls all relate to each other

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_04]: is still kept mysterious.

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_04]: It's just they're a part they're on this rescue mission.

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_04]: They're sort of the elite of the elite of the squad

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_04]: because their goal is just to capture or to rescue their leader.

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, they know his location, but they don't know where or why he's there.

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_04]: And that's the to me sort of the brilliance of the story is

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_04]: we've never really seen or read a comic or seen a movie

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_04]: where the main characters do not take any

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_04]: they they they're soul focused on the mission

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_04]: that they do not care about who gets in between them.

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_04]: There's no second guessing or anything like that to where they are sort of

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_04]: what would be mainstream seen as a villain,

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_04]: because there's so just whatever you do, kill them kind of a feel.

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_04]: But if if you need somebody to help you,

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_04]: this is the kind of person you'd want on your side.

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_04]: And that's what these employees of this hotel start to slowly learn is

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_04]: there's a greater evil going on around here.

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_04]: And we either side with these crazy girls

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_04]: or we're going to suffer at the hands of something worse.

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_04]: And then, you know, the brilliance for the reader is,

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_04]: well, how bad is it down below?

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, if if this is what's going on up top and there's

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_04]: if whatever so whatever you haven't seen yet must be really crazy

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_04]: if it's freaking everybody out and killing these assassins so easily.

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah. I mean, so let's get into that because, you know,

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_03]: the tables get flipped massively as the hunters become the hunted.

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, Valak releases these demonic murder priests

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_03]: that are vampiric of sorts, right?

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_03]: They're clearly attached to the book's title.

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's the kind of thing that could get cliched or sort of hokey really quickly,

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_03]: but they aren't at all. They're actually quite frightening.

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's a beautiful look for them, for them with the pointy hats,

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_03]: which was just the landmark I locked on because I grew up in the South

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_03]: so that immediately channeled KKK to me

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_03]: and kind of considering we all just witnessed hooded white supremacist

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_03]: assholes marching down the street in my home state.

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_03]: It's sadly all too topical of a horror presentation in my head.

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_03]: I can't quite imagine that was your analog,

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_03]: but talk to me about their role in the book and how you wanted them to play out narrative.

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_04]: If you think about it from an elitist point of view, that is where it comes from.

[00:26:08] [SPEAKER_04]: It's sort of a wherever in history pointed hats come from.

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_04]: That was mainly Gabriel's idea to actually give those monsters also the hats.

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Originally, it's a hierarchy of witches, so to speak.

[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_04]: In this future, you're looking at.

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_04]: If you were to imagine a lot of the research of this book at the same time came from

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_04]: whenever I was working in this hotel, there were rumors of underground military bases

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_04]: throughout the West in places like Area 51 and even Yellowstone National Park

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_04]: that they were underground military bases that didn't have just UFOs,

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_04]: but aliens and reptilians.

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_04]: And they ate humans and did ritual satanic sacrifices.

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_04]: This was a rumor.

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_04]: And these rumors now continue to this day.

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_04]: They became what ultimately you saw in like QAnon of rich, powerful elites

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_04]: using blood or in things like that.

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_04]: But in my mind, the hierarchy in these in this underground place was

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_04]: you essentially have a future where people are where human youth and blood

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_04]: are a one of the most valuable commodities.

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_04]: That's why all throughout the world, slavery and human trafficking is sort of normal.

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_04]: But that's why these the brilliance of our heroes is when your world is this bad,

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_04]: you need somebody that just doesn't ever care about anything other than freeing these slaves.

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_04]: And they come from it themselves.

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_04]: They there's no mercy for those that take a role in this evil.

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_04]: So whenever they finally face something this crazy and evil,

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_04]: but anyway, back to the hierarchy is like you have sort of your head,

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_04]: which which we see in the in the first the first issue you actually see

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_04]: are sort of priests or henchmen that actually perform the rituals.

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_04]: And so that's it's a combination between you're in a technological world

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_04]: where things are more advanced, much like where AI might take us in the future,

[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_04]: especially with we have Neurolink and cyber cyborgs already.

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_04]: But if you extrapolate another 100 or so years

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_04]: and then simultaneously if religions go even more extreme in the sense of

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_04]: or even just sort of the old school mystery religions

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_04]: of where a sacrifice was normal and there is mysteries and oracles that,

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_04]: you know, you go to the tower, the old Sparta stories of, you know,

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_04]: where who when do we go to war kinds of things?

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_04]: This is that's what this place is.

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_04]: So that's these are the old ancient alchemy religion to where sacrifice is involved

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_04]: and worship and, you know, astrology and all these are involved

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_04]: in addition to the technological advances that are going on in this place.

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_04]: So that's where you get this very resident evil kind of feel of an underground base

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_04]: where they're doing experiments on people that are making them super human

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_04]: but also monstrous.

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_04]: And that's exactly what you're getting in this realm

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_04]: is a mixture of sort of who's a rich guy that just wants to live forever?

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Who's a victim of sacrifice and experimentation?

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Who's a priest that also has powers or is sort of has,

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_04]: you know, psychic abilities and all that sort of left subtly to the reader

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_04]: in the same sense that what I liked about shows like Game of Thrones

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_04]: is if you put the magic and the sort of extra terrestrial kind of things,

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_04]: they're there, but you don't make that the highlight.

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_04]: It's almost you what you like are the political family dramas

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_04]: and just the idea of the magic and and how, you know,

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_04]: they might sacrifice people for the sake of trying to win a war or win a battle

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_04]: or something or, you know, whisper in somebody's ear to do something.

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_04]: But you're not going into where they are full blown Harry Potter with wands

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_04]: that's like, you know, shooting and levitating people.

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_04]: It's more just subtle and nothing's ever immediate.

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_04]: What you're actually seeing on the ground surface is very much action heavy.

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_04]: It's martial arts.

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_04]: It's like these girls even guns play a minimal role in this world.

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Like they exist and they are used.

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_04]: But when you're dealing with monsters,

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_04]: your guns have, you know, not as much power as, you know,

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_04]: and it's not like lightsabers or anything like that.

[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_04]: It's very much hand to hand combat and old.

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_04]: It's a mixture of old technology and futuristic, nonexistent technology.

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_04]: So we Gabriel played a big role in us helping us figure out

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_04]: how do we want to do that?

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_04]: We also added an interesting element that

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_04]: if the story takes place, you know, a hundred, two hundred years in the future.

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, what if we the characters in the future, they're talking about past weapons

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_04]: that are still futuristic to us here in their early 2000s.

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_04]: So they would be like, oh, man, that we haven't seen

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_04]: machinery or weapons like this in a hundred years, but they still

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_04]: so they're old to the characters, but still new to us.

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_04]: And so we would add sort of Easter eggs and stuff like that in there.

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_03]: OK, yeah, I want to get in and highlight

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_03]: and give kudos to Gabriel and how the world looks visually for a second.

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Because it reminded me a bit of Sean Murphy's work on Tokyo Ghost.

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_03]: If you're familiar. Yeah, I'm familiar with that. OK.

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you know, the artwork is splashy, lots of splash pages,

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_03]: lots of big panels with this like really kinetic pacing

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_03]: and lots of the one things I enjoyed, lots of the panels are kind of within

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_03]: other panels and there's a repetition of these small vertical windows

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_03]: that had framing for acting, right, that that that work really, really well.

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_03]: They're gorgeous and the line work is then not really highly detailed.

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_03]: It relies on the color work to kind of

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_03]: accentuate the outlines and the expressions.

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. And he I really feel like Gabriel stepped it up on this project

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_03]: but but talk to me about pacing it, you know, because it's pretty nonstop

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_03]: after the setup, I guess was where the John Wick sort of analogy pops into play.

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that we so if you took the.

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Sorry, my cats like this drawing.

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_04]: That's OK. But.

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_04]: There is a book by Alan Moore

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_04]: and I think it was originally an article in a magazine a long time ago.

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_04]: And he talks about pacing in comics to where

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_04]: and this is probably common knowledge to super professional comic writers.

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_04]: But the more panels and the more

[00:33:24] [SPEAKER_04]: the slower the read, so to speak, less panels quicker, the read.

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_04]: We have less panels and not a whole lot of dialogue.

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_04]: It's very action heavy.

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_04]: It's very cinematic. Right.

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_04]: And if Gabriel weren't as brilliant as he would,

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't think he would have as strong of an impact because of how

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_04]: most people may be used to reading comics.

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_04]: They are looking at every detail on the page.

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_04]: And much like you're talking about Tokyo ghost and shine Gordon Murphy,

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_04]: there's a lot of detail in his work and to where you want to appreciate

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_04]: every everything about it that's on there.

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_04]: And Gabriel sort of took the same route and he envisioned

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_04]: he originally had everything very, very detailed and he deliberately took parts out

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_04]: to give more impact on the parts he wanted to have more detail

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_04]: and less and almost more as if you envision something

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_04]: not out of focus, but where you change the frame of reference to where

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_04]: the things in the background might have more detail than the things

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_04]: in the foreground and vice versa.

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_04]: That was all like as we told him, like you're the director of this.

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_04]: But we wrote it very step by step because

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_04]: we had had even though the raid movies,

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_04]: if you ever saw that the raid redemption and raid to those were converted

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_04]: into comics in a sense or at least from that same sort of universe.

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_04]: We hadn't seen something that was just very step by step,

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_04]: almost as if you're seeing something where it's

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_04]: room to room and, you know, instead of just

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_04]: this broad if we were taking a very broad story

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_04]: and we're just it's just you're seeing one glimpse like this.

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_04]: This is the world.

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_04]: These are the characters.

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_04]: This is the hotel.

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_04]: This is what's happened in this room of the main place.

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_04]: And we actually did consider putting in like a

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_04]: map of the layout of not just the hotel, but sort of the lake around it.

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_04]: And that still may happen in the future, sort of the same way

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Lord of the Rings kind of showcases the map of that whole realm.

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_04]: But just to showcase just exactly like from a bird's eye view,

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_04]: what's happening in this place?

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Because it's very tight once you're in it,

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_04]: you and it's almost important to know,

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_04]: you know, this person's on the roof.

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_04]: This person's outside.

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_04]: This person's in this room and they all come together in one spot.

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's to make you feel trapped.

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_04]: And that because once you're there, that is there's a feeling

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_04]: we want you to have when you're reading it.

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_04]: And that is there's no way out or up only down.

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_04]: And the only thing we know of that's down there

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_04]: is it's worse than you can ever imagine.

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Like the characters in the story, that for those who haven't read it,

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_04]: the spoiler at one point they are anybody that gives them any pushback.

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_04]: They either kill or threaten and then they take people that know

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_04]: anything about the location or where their leader may be.

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_04]: They try to convince those people to lead them to him.

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_04]: OK, if you know, take us down there.

[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_04]: And they are all basically saying, you're going to have to kill me

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_04]: not because I don't want you to know the secret, but I'm not going down there.

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Like you can go down there.

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_04]: It's down there. It's down that hole, but I'm not going down there.

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_04]: It's too it's too evil for me.

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_04]: And whenever you think and even if it doesn't have the impact

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_04]: to the reader from our writing perspective, it's that's how

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_04]: what could possibly be worse or how can it be so crazy down there?

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_04]: What are they doing down there?

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_04]: If even these people who are welcoming, you know, violence normally

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_04]: and they're sort of evil people, they're the rich elites of an evil world.

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_04]: What are they afraid of down there?

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_04]: And that's so it's sort of that ultimate feeling of, you know,

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_04]: the classic, you know, the shark eats the monster

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_04]: or and then there's Godzilla underneath it.

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Like there's just there's something epic that is unspeakable.

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Cthulhu is down there.

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_04]: And you know, what's something like that is the tone that we're trying to give off

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_04]: to where you're trapped.

[00:38:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Only way down is below and what and whatever is down there is,

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_04]: you know, of such monstrous proportions

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_04]: that even the most tactical evil elite are afraid of it,

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_04]: along with the people that are trying to

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_04]: that kill murderers for a living like serial killers.

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, the the adjective that came to mind to me while reading it

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_03]: was tactical because it feels like a SWAT team moving through space almost.

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_03]: You get at times kind of that overhead view and the angles change

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_03]: a lot, which kind of helps.

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_03]: You stay on in the panels a little bit longer.

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_03]: But the you know, the main thing to me was the color work,

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_03]: which just sold the mood for the whole thing.

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_03]: It's restricted and dark and provides that proper tonal

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_03]: horror vibe really.

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, so how do you and Aaron and Gabriel work?

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Is your second project together?

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think you've done more than that.

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_03]: So what's your workflow like?

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, this yeah, you're right.

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_04]: This is our second project with Gabriel.

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_04]: And he.

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Sort of the way we've worked, the way we first started working

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_04]: changed as we got more familiar with everybody's the way to do it.

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_04]: But it's we start with the Crow and I writing together is truly

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_04]: a lot of our writing work happened in the past

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_04]: quite a few years ago.

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_04]: And we literally talked everything out

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_04]: before we ever really wrote anything down.

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_04]: And then once we sort of talk out the entire plot

[00:39:44] [SPEAKER_04]: or and thing that we're going for, one of us sits down

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_04]: and actually starts writing the very detailed scene by scene outline.

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_04]: And then that and then we pass it to the other

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_04]: and we flesh that out.

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_04]: And then like in the case of it, each of it feeds it.

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Crow then took, you know, one piece that I did

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_04]: and then started actually doing the scene by scene.

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_04]: But there's we had already written it in our heads.

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_04]: We both knew everything that was going to happen.

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_04]: It's really just like who sits down and does the work of writing

[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_04]: the dialogue, and then we pass that back and, you know, draft one.

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_04]: And then I make my edits, send it to him.

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_04]: He makes his edit, sends it back to me, finalize.

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_04]: And then we send it to Gabriel and say, this is, you know, where we're at.

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Dialogue may change in the future.

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_04]: Number of panels per page is up to you if you feel it needs to change

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_04]: from what we wrote. There's a few things in each page on the script

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_04]: is highlighted in different colors.

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Depending on it's what we're trying to make important

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_04]: or let them know are like cannot change

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_04]: or something that is happening on this page that is a callback to a future page.

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_04]: So it needs to it's important that this weapon is in the left hand,

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_04]: kind of thing. And and that's physically it through word

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_04]: then actually like using the highlight tool for those different colors

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_04]: or a different color if the dialogue may change

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_04]: and things like that.

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_04]: And then Gabriel would take it and he would actually send back notes

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_04]: on his on the script, sort of first

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_04]: if he had any questions before he started doing his sketches.

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_04]: And then he would and then he sketched out the entire

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_04]: a whole issue before he starts actually going into the page by page.

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_04]: OK, sure. A sketch of the first, you know, all of issue one.

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_04]: And then as he starts and all the script is written for the whole arc

[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_04]: and Gabriel took it upon himself that he said, I don't want to know how it ends.

[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_04]: I'll read the first like couple of issues,

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_04]: but I don't need to read the whole thing to keep moving.

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Like I'd almost rather be surprised and see where my mind might take it as well.

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_04]: So that's sort of the broad process of it

[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_04]: is it's very much just we write it, send it, and then there's a lot of back and forth.

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_04]: But once you get it's like anything else,

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_04]: 80 percent of the way done is actually just 20 percent in the grand scheme

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_04]: because once he finally finalizes everything, that's when he

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_04]: there was actually the whole first couple of issues where he redid

[00:42:32] [SPEAKER_04]: a whole bunch of panels and rechanged.

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_04]: And then once we colored it, you know, there is a lot of trial and error

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_04]: with the coloring and it actually turned out a bit too dark in print.

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_04]: And so for this, the first volume

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_04]: we actually there was

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_04]: we changed the contrast basically

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_04]: so that the the darks are darker and darker, but the lights are lighter.

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_04]: So even though you still you still get that dark, heavy feel,

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_04]: but there's it's not quite as

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_04]: unseeable and shadowy as the original issues were, which digitally look perfect.

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_04]: But in print that and as anyone that works in desktop publishing knows,

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_04]: CMYK is different from red, blue, green or whatever.

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_04]: And RGB, right.

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_04]: The RGB and

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_04]: so we did update it for the trade

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_04]: and we also made

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_04]: a slight variation in that like I was saying, we were talking about a map.

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, instead of doing a map, we actually labeled

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_04]: because as you get further into the story, there are certain locations

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_04]: throughout this hotel in the layers beneath that they go to more than once

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_04]: and they're sort of elaborate and we actually label them in the book.

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Like they've entered, you know, West Wing of the hotel,

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_04]: you know, level one, the blah, blah, blah.

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_04]: And so it's actually really fun and interesting

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_04]: because the names are also sort of Easter eggs and apply to history and things like that.

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I have to check that out.

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Like I go back and on the reread, it's fun because I love maps.

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_03]: First of all, absolutely love maps personally.

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_03]: But this sounds like a rat maze with like the red arrow directions

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_03]: where you yeah, exactly around.

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. All right, let's take a quick break.

[00:44:37] [SPEAKER_03]: After a string of unexplained

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_03]: disappearances in the southern parts of the United States, retired detective

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Clint searches for his white trash brother.

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_03]: While searching for him, he ends up being abducted by aliens.

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_03]: He is now in the arena for big guns, stupid rednecks.

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_03]: An intergalactic cable's newest hit show, which puts him and other humans

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_03]: in laser gun gladiatorial combat.

[00:45:01] [SPEAKER_03]: And his brother is the reigning champion with 27 kills.

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_03]: That's the premise for a new book from Banda Barnes, Big Guns, Stupid Rednecks.

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_03]: I got a chance to see an advanced preview of this book

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_03]: and being from the south, honestly, I was a bit skeptical going in,

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_03]: but they won me over and nothing is more powerful than an initially

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_03]: skeptic convert in my book.

[00:45:21] [SPEAKER_03]: In Jimmy's words, Big Guns, Stupid Rednecks is many things, but it isn't subtle.

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_03]: It tells you exactly what it is up front.

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Then it delivers with a great premise, fantastic art and a whole mess of fun.

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_03]: I had a great time reading Big Guns, Stupid Rednecks.

[00:45:35] [SPEAKER_03]: And what I thought was going to be an indictment of redneck culture

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_03]: quickly showed it was actually a love letter.

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_03]: A family mystery, brother pitted against brother aliens,

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_03]: fighting for profit in a big arena.

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_03]: This truly has it all.

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Issue one is out already, but you can still pick up a copy on the Banda Bards website.

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_03]: And current issues are available via your previews or lunar order form

[00:45:54] [SPEAKER_03]: or just ask your LCS. Don't miss it.

[00:45:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's get back to the show.

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_03]: This one was obviously fairly contained geographically,

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_03]: but there's clearly a big world to explore.

[00:46:06] [SPEAKER_03]: So Arc One is done.

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_03]: What can you tell me?

[00:46:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Obviously hopeful, right?

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_03]: For an Arc Two.

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_03]: So will that get much wider?

[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Will we be introduced maybe to...

[00:46:19] [SPEAKER_03]: What can you tell me?

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_03]: I got it.

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, yeah, I can actually tell you a lot.

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm one of those people that I believe in the show more in the trailer.

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, in the past, I get that there's some parts

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_04]: you want to leave as spoilers or whatever, but ultimately

[00:46:36] [SPEAKER_04]: people do want to hear the nitty gritty of like, well, what happens?

[00:46:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:46:41] [SPEAKER_04]: So, yeah, I'll give away what you're seeing in the first six issues is

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_04]: what I call on the surface, literally and figuratively.

[00:46:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Or, you know, they're literally from the land

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_04]: and the lake that they start on, especially our main characters

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_04]: start at this lake.

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_04]: They land on this island, on the lake,

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_04]: and on that island is a hotel.

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_04]: And they just go from outside in sabotage and overthrow

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_04]: and take control of that hotel.

[00:47:19] [SPEAKER_04]: And then they learn that there's layers below.

[00:47:22] [SPEAKER_04]: And the first six issues, all you're seeing is the hotel.

[00:47:25] [SPEAKER_04]: And you just...

[00:47:27] [SPEAKER_04]: And they just break into the elevator that takes them below.

[00:47:31] [SPEAKER_04]: And then you're sort of...

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_04]: That's where it ends for those spoiler alert for like

[00:47:37] [SPEAKER_04]: where we add up the first six issues.

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, obviously how they get there and what the mysteries of characters

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_04]: that live and die in their relationship and sort of...

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_04]: But that's the setup.

[00:47:48] [SPEAKER_04]: As we go into this second volume, you then see the layers below.

[00:47:53] [SPEAKER_04]: And you start to learn how they play a role

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_04]: and what happened on top and why they have Silla

[00:48:02] [SPEAKER_04]: and what the plans are for what's going on at this place.

[00:48:06] [SPEAKER_04]: Why is everybody here at this time?

[00:48:09] [SPEAKER_04]: And you learn that it's very much...

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_04]: There's a big ritualistic ceremony that's happening.

[00:48:16] [SPEAKER_04]: And there's different aspects and there's levels to that ritual

[00:48:20] [SPEAKER_04]: that some people don't even know is happening.

[00:48:27] [SPEAKER_04]: It's very much based upon the old rights of the mystery schools

[00:48:31] [SPEAKER_04]: if everybody has ever heard of those.

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_04]: It's supposedly in the past or historically in the past

[00:48:39] [SPEAKER_04]: or even the rights of passage for someone to become a man

[00:48:45] [SPEAKER_04]: and certain sex or tribes and definitely certain religions.

[00:48:50] [SPEAKER_04]: They have to go through these series of steps

[00:48:52] [SPEAKER_04]: and they have these ritual ceremonies that if you expand them

[00:48:57] [SPEAKER_04]: onto a really grand scale, there is people that are involved

[00:49:00] [SPEAKER_04]: in them that don't even realize that they're a part of this right

[00:49:03] [SPEAKER_04]: or that they're sort of a sacrificial portion of a greater plan.

[00:49:07] [SPEAKER_04]: And so that's also what you're learning

[00:49:09] [SPEAKER_04]: is that there's multiple layers that are going on here

[00:49:13] [SPEAKER_04]: and everyone plays their part and our leaves are just sort of trapped in the middle of it.

[00:49:21] [SPEAKER_04]: But they are unforgiving and they just...

[00:49:27] [SPEAKER_04]: If you... Any decision, you do learn as we get further

[00:49:31] [SPEAKER_04]: that there are some things that do trigger them in a sense

[00:49:36] [SPEAKER_04]: and that's where you get more into the emotional aspects of the characters

[00:49:41] [SPEAKER_04]: in that you get the...

[00:49:46] [SPEAKER_04]: That's where you learn more a bit about their past

[00:49:49] [SPEAKER_04]: and what they were freed from so that's what triggers them.

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_04]: And so in that sense, you get someone like Kai who is a child slave.

[00:49:59] [SPEAKER_04]: If she runs into child slaves, it has a bigger emotional impact

[00:50:05] [SPEAKER_04]: than it would be someone else who is rescued from a different portion of the world for a different...

[00:50:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Trauma.

[00:50:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, different trauma.

[00:50:13] [SPEAKER_04]: So you get those kinds of elements involved as well.

[00:50:16] [SPEAKER_04]: But plot-wise without revealing too much, that's what's going on

[00:50:20] [SPEAKER_04]: is you're literally now in the lower portions and you get another...

[00:50:25] [SPEAKER_04]: You learn another level to the mystery of what's going on here.

[00:50:28] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's that much more intense.

[00:50:31] [SPEAKER_04]: It's like if this is the layer of hell to where on the top everybody's just gluttonous and promiscuous

[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_04]: below they're actually evil and murderous and things like that.

[00:50:44] [SPEAKER_04]: And then if they go deeper, how bad can it get?

[00:50:47] [SPEAKER_04]: And that's where potentially chapter three or the third volume we get to.

[00:50:52] [SPEAKER_03]: So you're peeling the purgatory onion if you...

[00:50:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, in a sense it's my own Dante's Inferno.

[00:51:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, gotcha, gotcha.

[00:51:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Well lots of folks in the indie comic scene are always like how do I get a second arc on a book?

[00:51:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Of course yes you have to make a good product but lots of stuff on the shelves today is good.

[00:51:14] [SPEAKER_03]: And part of the problem is honestly how much of there is out there because we're in this

[00:51:17] [SPEAKER_03]: golden age of content in my mind.

[00:51:21] [SPEAKER_03]: In this case, was it luck?

[00:51:24] [SPEAKER_03]: A plan from the jump picking the right publisher was massive writing with the audience in mind.

[00:51:30] [SPEAKER_03]: I will say it is...

[00:51:34] [SPEAKER_04]: It's a big gamble but just like with anything even in storytelling when you take that risk

[00:51:43] [SPEAKER_04]: and just say I'm going for it sometimes that means that your product is good enough to

[00:51:49] [SPEAKER_04]: make it through.

[00:51:51] [SPEAKER_04]: It doesn't always work out that way.

[00:51:56] [SPEAKER_04]: We did that with our first book, It Eats a Feed It in the sense that we...

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Crow and I when we got together and we decided we're going to write the story we want and

[00:52:10] [SPEAKER_04]: we're going to do it as highly professional as possible so we're going to get one of

[00:52:14] [SPEAKER_04]: the best artists we both enjoy that's unique exceptionally talented.

[00:52:20] [SPEAKER_04]: We don't care how long it takes to do it.

[00:52:23] [SPEAKER_04]: We don't care how much it costs within reason.

[00:52:26] [SPEAKER_04]: It can't be a thousand per page but we're willing to invest a lot of time and a lot

[00:52:32] [SPEAKER_04]: of money into our first thing to make just the best product possible.

[00:52:37] [SPEAKER_04]: We viewed it in our minds as this was our creator owned thing that could potentially

[00:52:44] [SPEAKER_04]: be a big deal.

[00:52:46] [SPEAKER_04]: If you want to take it seriously as if I just want to make the best possible graphic novel

[00:52:51] [SPEAKER_04]: that I'm proud of when it's done, that I show people here's the physical thing.

[00:52:57] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm proud of this thing.

[00:52:58] [SPEAKER_04]: It's really good.

[00:52:59] [SPEAKER_04]: It fits on the shelves.

[00:53:01] [SPEAKER_04]: It's just as good as anything else that's out there if not better.

[00:53:04] [SPEAKER_04]: So in making that we sort of dove in and did it and it worked.

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_04]: We made our money back plus more.

[00:53:12] [SPEAKER_04]: It was a best seller with Scow.

[00:53:14] [SPEAKER_04]: It launched our careers.

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_04]: It got a lot of praise.

[00:53:18] [SPEAKER_04]: It launched our careers as writers and not just comic creators.

[00:53:24] [SPEAKER_04]: It gave us opportunities in screenwriting and all this stuff.

[00:53:29] [SPEAKER_04]: It wasn't like a whoa, just like the golden ticket.

[00:53:32] [SPEAKER_04]: But it was enough for us to then say if we did the same thing even deeper.

[00:53:38] [SPEAKER_04]: So let's make just as good of a product and take as long as we want with it.

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_04]: We don't care if we don't find a publisher and we just self publish and crowd fund.

[00:53:51] [SPEAKER_04]: However we got to do it just make it the best thing possible.

[00:53:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Well in the process of trying to do that the opportunities just made their way to us.

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_04]: So you can call that luck.

[00:54:02] [SPEAKER_04]: You can call it being prepared.

[00:54:04] [SPEAKER_04]: But I think that that's what goes in hand with it is although it was very strategic as well

[00:54:10] [SPEAKER_04]: especially with the marketing and how we wrote it and making sure we had quality covers

[00:54:15] [SPEAKER_04]: and got very talented and well known variant cover artists.

[00:54:19] [SPEAKER_04]: And but as far as us coming like working with Massive and things like that

[00:54:25] [SPEAKER_04]: that was an opportunity that came to us.

[00:54:29] [SPEAKER_04]: We didn't submit to them.

[00:54:30] [SPEAKER_04]: They didn't even exist at the time whenever we were producing it.

[00:54:35] [SPEAKER_04]: So it sort of landed in our lap so to speak.

[00:54:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Basically when Kevin Rotely who's the president of Massive

[00:54:47] [SPEAKER_04]: and at the time he was he ran his own imprint that was a part of Behemoth comics

[00:54:52] [SPEAKER_04]: which then got bought out by Sumerian.

[00:54:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Whenever he was with them he basically reached out to us and said

[00:54:59] [SPEAKER_04]: you know I'm interested in this if you guys are interested in working with me

[00:55:04] [SPEAKER_04]: whenever it's done.

[00:55:05] [SPEAKER_04]: And that was simply based off of the talent alone of art and just knowing that

[00:55:13] [SPEAKER_04]: we had we were decent writers obviously because of it eats what feeds it.

[00:55:17] [SPEAKER_04]: He didn't it wasn't like he required send me the full pitch kind of thing.

[00:55:24] [SPEAKER_04]: It was kind of like hey just by what I'm seeing I'm already interested you know.

[00:55:30] [SPEAKER_04]: So and as we got further along that's when things sort that then got finalized

[00:55:36] [SPEAKER_04]: and we started actually you know it became an actual like under contract kind of thing.

[00:55:42] [SPEAKER_04]: But in that process of like well how do we get the success to make it the second one is

[00:55:49] [SPEAKER_04]: there was a lot involved Massive plays a huge role and they had a huge audience.

[00:55:56] [SPEAKER_04]: So in the example of it eats what feeds it

[00:56:00] [SPEAKER_04]: then most of the time when you're making a book as an indie creator

[00:56:05] [SPEAKER_04]: you just are not going to make the sales numbers to really

[00:56:09] [SPEAKER_04]: keep it going.

[00:56:12] [SPEAKER_04]: And we were one of the only people that with Scout actually did have enough success to

[00:56:21] [SPEAKER_04]: continue that series but we had already started working on Liquid Kill.

[00:56:27] [SPEAKER_04]: So and it was Gabriel as that artist and we couldn't pull him away to try to do another

[00:56:31] [SPEAKER_04]: one especially since how we work so well together is we didn't put any time pressure

[00:56:36] [SPEAKER_04]: on him or ourselves.

[00:56:39] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean obviously some but not like we need this done this month there's a deadline kind of thing.

[00:56:45] [SPEAKER_04]: So we didn't want to put a deadline of trying to do two books at once.

[00:56:49] [SPEAKER_04]: So we just dove heavy on Liquid Kill and we actually started producing the first two arcs

[00:56:56] [SPEAKER_04]: or like basically the first 10 issues that we knew would be split into two volumes

[00:57:03] [SPEAKER_04]: all at once like knowing that no matter what if we don't get a publisher or don't you know

[00:57:09] [SPEAKER_04]: do not sell enough to actually continue on the series well at least have we're going to do two.

[00:57:16] [SPEAKER_04]: And so luckily with working with Massive we knew sort of the steps to make it a hit

[00:57:23] [SPEAKER_04]: so to speak and plus since Massive does a lot of marketing on their own

[00:57:27] [SPEAKER_04]: they also wanted to make hits so it wasn't like some publishers is they'll take you on

[00:57:34] [SPEAKER_04]: they'll do the bare minimum to get it out there and get it into comic shops but they're not going to

[00:57:40] [SPEAKER_04]: do a whole lot to really push it out in during the pre-order phase and things like that.

[00:57:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Crowe and I did a lot of boots on the ground work we went to local comic shops we called

[00:57:53] [SPEAKER_04]: or emailed over 100 comic shops throughout the nation and some in Ireland and the UK

[00:58:00] [SPEAKER_04]: and we just pitched it to people and we reached out to you know other comic creators commentators

[00:58:09] [SPEAKER_04]: in the space and really tried to make it work in a sense of get everyone that we can to at least

[00:58:17] [SPEAKER_04]: make a strong launch so that even as the sales dwindle issue by issue if we have a really strong

[00:58:23] [SPEAKER_04]: launch we'll still at least make up enough to cover the cost of those first six issues and

[00:58:29] [SPEAKER_04]: if we can just cover the cost of the first six issues to where we break even well then it'll

[00:58:33] [SPEAKER_04]: be worth it enough to then say now we can go and push on with the second arc and that's

[00:58:39] [SPEAKER_04]: exactly what happened is it was a success it broke even it wasn't like a you know and from people who

[00:58:48] [SPEAKER_04]: look at sales numbers they would be like that's wow they were you know they did a lot but break even

[00:58:54] [SPEAKER_04]: on printing is not at all the same as break even on production right and so what might look like

[00:59:01] [SPEAKER_04]: an ultra success in one eye is to us is like okay we we barely made it you know and that's

[00:59:08] [SPEAKER_04]: basically where we were at and so now it's we're doing the exact same thing with this second arc

[00:59:14] [SPEAKER_04]: next year is basically like if we can do the same thing well then we'll go on to part three

[00:59:19] [SPEAKER_04]: and even with all the the the pushing that we do to try to get it out there to people

[00:59:28] [SPEAKER_04]: you never really know if you have us like a strong audience I feel until the trades out

[00:59:37] [SPEAKER_04]: because that's what most people actually read that then become fans and it's now been

[00:59:43] [SPEAKER_04]: it's been a year since you know issue one was released to people so like from our perspective

[00:59:48] [SPEAKER_04]: and from a production perspective we're three years into this thing before anyone might even

[00:59:56] [SPEAKER_04]: really learn if they like this series or not so it's really hard for comic creators to

[01:00:03] [SPEAKER_04]: gauge with and the point of my long tangent here is just you have to dive deep into it and just say

[01:00:10] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't care if it doesn't work it doesn't work but if it works we win big or at least break even

[01:00:16] [SPEAKER_03]: and make it worth it well I know you've been focusing some of your time on developing tools

[01:00:21] [SPEAKER_03]: to help other creators you know there's a comic book marketing course on your website

[01:00:25] [SPEAKER_03]: and a YouTube channel indie comic empire it's mostly career development advice focused

[01:00:31] [SPEAKER_03]: in you're fairly new to the the comics game yourselves but it's always profession to see

[01:00:36] [SPEAKER_03]: people who want to build those support ladders for doobies because so many industries you hear

[01:00:41] [SPEAKER_03]: about people just they get the success and they just pull the ladders up so so what was the most

[01:00:46] [SPEAKER_03]: challenging thing for you sort of starting out with all this that the fact that there is

[01:00:53] [SPEAKER_04]: so little information on what it really takes to do this so that's why I started the YouTube

[01:01:00] [SPEAKER_04]: channel is because before I was out there and I'm sure you can dive deep but it's it's hard to find

[01:01:07] [SPEAKER_04]: is if you want to know uh it you know you have an idea in your head and like exactly where I was at

[01:01:16] [SPEAKER_04]: let's say seven years ago I have an idea in my head that I want to turn into a graphic novel

[01:01:23] [SPEAKER_04]: or a comic series uh what does it what and and I'm willing to spend money you know or I I have

[01:01:33] [SPEAKER_04]: the funds to make it a so actually how it happened with me and that's actually how sorry to go back

[01:01:39] [SPEAKER_04]: and forth but I was I was producing movies and writing movies okay and I try in learning that

[01:01:48] [SPEAKER_04]: which is also very hard to do because you can learn how to film a movie the actual what they

[01:01:54] [SPEAKER_04]: call principal photography is very easy to learn online that is the the cameras the cinematography

[01:02:01] [SPEAKER_04]: but what when the movies done how does it get into theaters how does it get onto Netflix

[01:02:10] [SPEAKER_04]: how do you even what happens after that like how does a film make money like what makes a film

[01:02:17] [SPEAKER_04]: worth a million dollar like if you have a star in it like what is it that actually

[01:02:23] [SPEAKER_04]: brings in revenue and who gets it and why and all these questions I had to I learned

[01:02:29] [SPEAKER_04]: just trying it out now to cut to in the process of doing that I learned that it actually does

[01:02:37] [SPEAKER_04]: not cost that much money nowadays to make a feature film uh you can make a quality film

[01:02:45] [SPEAKER_04]: for like a really high quality film for probably about a hundred grand and that and that includes

[01:02:53] [SPEAKER_04]: having actors that you've seen in movies or tv shows uh the the actual and and a hundred grand

[01:03:01] [SPEAKER_04]: although is crazy especially whenever I got into this at 20 I don't have a hundred thousand

[01:03:06] [SPEAKER_04]: dollars I don't even now you know but that didn't seem impossible to me whenever we broke it

[01:03:13] [SPEAKER_04]: down as far as you know a very contained film something like it eats it feeds it and mostly one

[01:03:19] [SPEAKER_04]: house you know there's some visual effects that was written as a comic but just for references

[01:03:25] [SPEAKER_04]: like if you had to envision that as a film and you start going line by line how much would this

[01:03:30] [SPEAKER_04]: cost uh point being is it wasn't that much and I ended up basically taking a hundred thousand

[01:03:37] [SPEAKER_04]: dollar movie filming it in India for 20 grand and getting that funded and all and then figured out how

[01:03:46] [SPEAKER_04]: to actually make that money back how to get it into theaters we didn't actually go the theatrical

[01:03:50] [SPEAKER_04]: route but how do you then get it on tv channels how do you get it into on just streaming platforms

[01:03:57] [SPEAKER_04]: and things like that figured all that out basically made the money back on that and

[01:04:03] [SPEAKER_04]: I then realized well if I can do uh a feature film for 20 grand what can I do with a graphic novel

[01:04:13] [SPEAKER_04]: like is it possible to do that and now i'm not limited on the budget or the story's not limited

[01:04:20] [SPEAKER_04]: so in the movie world you have to limit everything to what can you do with this budget so it's

[01:04:26] [SPEAKER_04]: got to be a contained location or whatever but if I have 20 grand that can make a really powerful

[01:04:33] [SPEAKER_04]: epic graphic novel that can be something like liquid kill where it's you know what would be a

[01:04:39] [SPEAKER_04]: marvel status multi-million dollar movie uh but in the graphic novel world let's try to do that

[01:04:50] [SPEAKER_04]: and that's where I then started to piece together okay so I learned from my process

[01:04:56] [SPEAKER_04]: of trying to learn how to make movies of what are the business elements required to produce

[01:05:01] [SPEAKER_04]: a graphic novel so the and uh when you're looking at it from the perspective of a producer as opposed

[01:05:08] [SPEAKER_04]: to a writer I'm not thinking about it's kind of funny you're actually not thinking about the budget

[01:05:15] [SPEAKER_04]: instead you're thinking what act or like what star artist do I want to work with

[01:05:21] [SPEAKER_04]: that you know if you're if your budget is in the count in the graphic novel world

[01:05:25] [SPEAKER_04]: kind of like at a studio level of what would be equivalent in the film world

[01:05:31] [SPEAKER_04]: you then start to think of who are going to be my stars in it who's going to be the director

[01:05:36] [SPEAKER_04]: and I sort of played with the world in that realm to where I actually started to reach out to

[01:05:41] [SPEAKER_04]: what are considered celebrities in this space of you know what do you cost uh what's your

[01:05:48] [SPEAKER_04]: timeframe and just learning the elements of uh okay what kind of publishers actually uh do I want

[01:05:56] [SPEAKER_04]: to work with that that publish this kind of story and obviously reading comics I already knew that it

[01:06:03] [SPEAKER_04]: was going to be image or dark horse because it's sure you know it those would be the goals

[01:06:09] [SPEAKER_04]: like anybody get into the space they want to be uh with the publisher that they read all the

[01:06:15] [SPEAKER_04]: time so you know I was thinking in mind you know I want to work with image I want to work with dark horse

[01:06:21] [SPEAKER_04]: those kind of publishers but then as you then start production so you're starting to find people

[01:06:27] [SPEAKER_04]: well who's done a book with image or boom before and that's actually how we found Gabriel is going

[01:06:33] [SPEAKER_04]: through our archives and pro and I discovered uh we both liked Gabriel Yuma's arcs art in this

[01:06:42] [SPEAKER_04]: boom book called the last broadcast because and his art style was just an and he happened to be

[01:06:50] [SPEAKER_04]: sort of on hiatus he wasn't uh although he was very popular as an artist in the on the internet

[01:06:57] [SPEAKER_04]: world especially in the early like two 2010s he hadn't done a whole lot publicly whenever we

[01:07:04] [SPEAKER_04]: started reaching out to him uh and we found out that yeah he was sought after by virtually

[01:07:11] [SPEAKER_04]: everybody in the industry and he just turned them all down and did his own thing he's he lives in

[01:07:16] [SPEAKER_04]: brazil he uh he's a very professional has a lot going on in his own world and he works in entertainment

[01:07:26] [SPEAKER_04]: out there uh worked with a lot of big brands and just did his own thing it's the equivalent to

[01:07:32] [SPEAKER_04]: people like Sean Chen who worked for Marvel in DC but then just made more money doing

[01:07:37] [SPEAKER_04]: storyboarding and and for the studios and things like that and Gabriel's sort of like that to where

[01:07:43] [SPEAKER_04]: he just was like i'm going to stick to my own creative endeavors so we learned with him

[01:07:49] [SPEAKER_04]: and not just him but if you're trying to reach a big artist somebody that is so talented to where

[01:07:57] [SPEAKER_04]: it actually is not hard for them to find work they are actually swamped with offers for work

[01:08:01] [SPEAKER_04]: when someone's that talented uh that's where you know the Sean Gordon Murphy's of the world

[01:08:07] [SPEAKER_04]: the there's plenty other names i can say but uh so they are not influenced by money

[01:08:17] [SPEAKER_04]: that uh obviously it matters to them but they can get their rate with anybody because the

[01:08:24] [SPEAKER_04]: people that are reaching out to them are professional publishers and it creators that

[01:08:29] [SPEAKER_04]: can pay them their high rate so if you're a nobody well how do you break through the noise to reach

[01:08:35] [SPEAKER_04]: out to them and with them it's got to be something powerful it's got to be a story that they really

[01:08:40] [SPEAKER_04]: want to do that can't be done anywhere else or you know that and so we had to win over

[01:08:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Gabriel with writing so to speak like we had to impress him with our story

[01:08:54] [SPEAKER_04]: and luckily we were able to do that we weren't at first and i've said this another podcast we've

[01:09:00] [SPEAKER_04]: we pitched him in a story originally that he could tell the writing was good but it was a very

[01:09:07] [SPEAKER_04]: crow and i were very much influenced by the

[01:09:12] [SPEAKER_04]: way almost like extreme horror kind of stuff and we wanted to break

[01:09:17] [SPEAKER_04]: uh our our idea of breaking the noise and as writers or creators in the space is by

[01:09:26] [SPEAKER_04]: really breaking barriers uh with how can you go really um taboo subjects basically without being

[01:09:37] [SPEAKER_04]: like uh erotic just you know scary dark kind of stories like that and Gabriel frowned upon our

[01:09:46] [SPEAKER_04]: first one it was just way too much it was and looking back on it it was the it's equivalent to someone

[01:09:52] [SPEAKER_04]: that's like i don't want to read i don't want to draw a hostel to an extreme you know uh it was

[01:09:59] [SPEAKER_04]: just too graphic in that sense and it wasn't although we thought it was really fun it was

[01:10:04] [SPEAKER_04]: much like seven uh in the sense that it was this thrallin mystery uh but each uh murder

[01:10:14] [SPEAKER_04]: escalated worse and there was a twist and a great story and people we still have it in

[01:10:20] [SPEAKER_04]: in production in a different form but uh yeah he denied that one and then we then he basically

[01:10:26] [SPEAKER_04]: gave us very specific instructions of this is the kind of thing i'll do if you can impress me

[01:10:32] [SPEAKER_04]: with your story and we did that was at each what feeds it and once once it it feeds it each

[01:10:37] [SPEAKER_04]: what feeds it was done he basically said i'll do whatever you guys want to do next and we're like

[01:10:43] [SPEAKER_04]: well he you did want cyberpunk in the future or in the past you said you wanted cyberpunk so let's

[01:10:49] [SPEAKER_04]: let's do our cyberpunk it's going to be a lot more uh heavy than your original idea it still

[01:10:56] [SPEAKER_03]: might be teen but it's going to be teen plus yeah i mean it is obviously sex trafficking

[01:11:04] [SPEAKER_03]: very serious subject and it manages to be simultaneously sexy and depressing

[01:11:11] [SPEAKER_03]: if that makes sense right you know um if people are turned on by it i i don't really want to know

[01:11:18] [SPEAKER_04]: those people as yeah and we okay abril's great in that we he knew that what if we wanted to just

[01:11:29] [SPEAKER_04]: we didn't want to make it sexy the the girls can't be you know overly sexualized at all with

[01:11:37] [SPEAKER_04]: they with the with the the content that we were doing like you said it's too weird and and we were

[01:11:44] [SPEAKER_04]: you know pitched it that way to where it's like these girls are uh although they're females

[01:11:50] [SPEAKER_04]: they're mean and they're not and they're and they're not known no one's most people would

[01:11:55] [SPEAKER_04]: write it to where like everyone's mesmerized by their beauty or something like that but that's

[01:11:59] [SPEAKER_04]: nowhere in there it's just they're actually more scared of these characters you know but

[01:12:03] [SPEAKER_04]: but gabriel is also just a a master of drawing females so it's just visually pleasing no matter

[01:12:12] [SPEAKER_04]: what they look like or what they're wearing um and that yeah so yeah we didn't as taboo is the

[01:12:20] [SPEAKER_04]: things that are in it it was never the people reading it it shouldn't be overly sexualized or

[01:12:26] [SPEAKER_04]: not glorifying violence there's still a message to it all yeah yeah absolutely well what else you

[01:12:33] [SPEAKER_04]: got cooking so if everybody if everybody gets if we can get the same level of people that read

[01:12:45] [SPEAKER_04]: the first volume to read volume two we will continue liquid kill further okay um so like those that if it

[01:12:55] [SPEAKER_04]: really like takes off in a sense or even just maintains where it's at if it dwindles that's where

[01:13:01] [SPEAKER_04]: we might have like an issue far in the future like issue volume two still for sure happening

[01:13:07] [SPEAKER_04]: but i so like with the youtube channel i have a whole lot going on as you know i'm actually an

[01:13:13] [SPEAKER_04]: editor on projects that i can't talk about yet of course that are in production or in post-production

[01:13:19] [SPEAKER_04]: and we're just trying to finalize publishing and things like that uh and uh crow has also

[01:13:28] [SPEAKER_04]: we've written quite a few different scripts that we have a lot of people lined up to

[01:13:35] [SPEAKER_04]: to work with in the future but we can only do so much at a time of course um but the we

[01:13:41] [SPEAKER_04]: definitely for sure have one book that we have announced that's in production that's a another

[01:13:48] [SPEAKER_04]: gothic romance with a manga artist named bye bye unimund okay um but when that'll be released and

[01:13:57] [SPEAKER_04]: under what banner is still under like undetermined yet can't be announced or anything um but uh

[01:14:07] [SPEAKER_04]: that's like kind of the main most immediate things is uh the the liquid kill volume two

[01:14:13] [SPEAKER_04]: the trade for liquid kill this other gothic romance that'll be coming soon in the future

[01:14:18] [SPEAKER_04]: but we also have a lot of other artists that we're working in production with at the same time and

[01:14:24] [SPEAKER_04]: i also am doing my own for people that go to my website for those that are trying to break into

[01:14:31] [SPEAKER_04]: space i try to just tell everybody everything i know and everything that i do is it's free on youtube

[01:14:38] [SPEAKER_04]: like if you if people download my stuff or pay for my books or pay for my course it's about as cheap

[01:14:44] [SPEAKER_04]: as you can for a course fifty dollars uh and like stuff like that or the books uh uh all that is

[01:14:51] [SPEAKER_04]: just so i can do a make a little bit from it but all the information is on youtube like the

[01:14:58] [SPEAKER_04]: the books and the things that people can digitally download all that's just consolidating

[01:15:02] [SPEAKER_04]: the same information that people get from my youtube channel um so they can still get everything

[01:15:09] [SPEAKER_04]: for free that i know uh it's not like i leave anything a secret that you can only i would

[01:15:15] [SPEAKER_04]: probably make more money if i did it that way but i just don't and it's it's not like i am

[01:15:20] [SPEAKER_04]: rolling in the dough from any of that kind of stuff so but i do get you know uh plenty

[01:15:26] [SPEAKER_04]: that's i started doing the youtube because i just got so many people that reached out to me personally

[01:15:31] [SPEAKER_04]: asking me these questions and i was like i'll just i'll just put it all together in a youtube

[01:15:35] [SPEAKER_04]: channel and just fill in the main one is just people want to know how much like money do

[01:15:41] [SPEAKER_04]: books make through the direct market yep um and uh and that's still a mystery and i know we're

[01:15:49] [SPEAKER_04]: we're well over an hour but if like if you wanted to get into the the scout debacle that was

[01:15:55] [SPEAKER_04]: happening with a lot of people uh not to dive too in that but what i learned from that is even

[01:16:01] [SPEAKER_04]: other creators did not realize how little money you make in comics as a creator own book uh and

[01:16:09] [SPEAKER_04]: that's where i why i i think started getting a lot of people reaching out to me was because i broke

[01:16:15] [SPEAKER_04]: through that somehow uh and people want to know well why was yours why did yours be such a

[01:16:21] [SPEAKER_04]: success or whatever and uh i started really just trying to piece together why like what what were

[01:16:28] [SPEAKER_04]: the elements that were involved um and some of them were deliberate a lot of it was luck uh

[01:16:35] [SPEAKER_04]: but in the process of just trying to piece that all together and then give people the actual

[01:16:40] [SPEAKER_04]: behind the scenes of like what were your numbers like what did you what did for issue one sell

[01:16:45] [SPEAKER_04]: what did issue two um and and then the reprints and how much did printing cost and and uh how much

[01:16:52] [SPEAKER_04]: did it sell on scouts website how much did what not make those kinds of details uh is what no one

[01:16:59] [SPEAKER_04]: tells you like nobody everyone i think thinks that that's like a secret because they don't make

[01:17:05] [SPEAKER_04]: anything from it when you get negative sales you don't want to tell people because it almost

[01:17:11] [SPEAKER_04]: makes it uh as sort of disappointing as it is it also might look to a reader or to someone else as if

[01:17:20] [SPEAKER_04]: it's like not a success and might nullify your like how can you promote something as this

[01:17:27] [SPEAKER_04]: thing that you know behind the scenes didn't make it didn't make any money so it's yeah

[01:17:33] [SPEAKER_04]: it's almost like this conflicting like if i let people know they'll see it as illegitimate

[01:17:38] [SPEAKER_04]: or something but the big secret is that 90 of the people that's what we all get um you know

[01:17:47] [SPEAKER_04]: is break even or nothing uh so when someone actually continuously makes money in this field

[01:17:55] [SPEAKER_04]: we want to know like how they did it and so that's that's what i was telling people it's like

[01:18:00] [SPEAKER_04]: it not just fluff uh follow your dreams you know what were the specifics you did who did

[01:18:07] [SPEAKER_04]: i hire what kind of book did i write how many issues was it how uh how what were the page rates

[01:18:12] [SPEAKER_04]: of the art those kinds of things and that's what i delve into my youtube channel and uh you know in

[01:18:19] [SPEAKER_04]: that sense it's been a success i a lot i get a lot of people that also read my books now because

[01:18:25] [SPEAKER_04]: of the youtube channel um nice so it's a double-edged sword that works it's a win win in that

[01:18:31] [SPEAKER_04]: sense it's that i get to uh have my own sort of branch as now an editor because of this youtube channel

[01:18:39] [SPEAKER_04]: but my audience that wants to learn how to make comics also are now fans of my work as a

[01:18:47] [SPEAKER_04]: an actual comic writer and wants to read the work as well so yeah i mean i really appreciated

[01:18:53] [SPEAKER_03]: i started watching it the other night um and i think it's fantastic that you're doing that

[01:18:57] [SPEAKER_03]: because i've talked to a lot of people and the it's hard right the it's a hard medium and the jaded

[01:19:03] [SPEAKER_03]: nature of people dealing with it and just feeling overwhelmed and wanting to give up it's it's hard

[01:19:10] [SPEAKER_03]: for that not to bleed into their own promotional efforts at times so i really appreciate you keeping

[01:19:16] [SPEAKER_03]: it positive and it was a lesson that i learned very quickly because for a while i had a segment

[01:19:21] [SPEAKER_03]: on the show which was hey give me a piece of advice for the new comics creator who's coming

[01:19:25] [SPEAKER_03]: into the field right now and that got dark really really fast oh man as you can imagine if it's if you

[01:19:34] [SPEAKER_04]: think it's dark in comics do not try to make movie yeah because that's those are real sad story because

[01:19:42] [SPEAKER_04]: with comics you're never in debt to somebody or like you're never you can't your life can't be

[01:19:55] [SPEAKER_04]: ruined if no one watches your movie like there are people that will that don't that think that there is

[01:20:02] [SPEAKER_04]: or even not even think you just you can get partial funding for a movie so if you let's just

[01:20:09] [SPEAKER_04]: say your movie cost 400 grand you might get funding for 250 000 and you're like i'm golden

[01:20:18] [SPEAKER_04]: and then you self fund 175 or something like that uh that's everything you may have

[01:20:27] [SPEAKER_04]: plus debt so now you've basically you're investing your entire savings and future on

[01:20:34] [SPEAKER_04]: something just because you got enough people involved to where you think it's going to work

[01:20:40] [SPEAKER_04]: and then it doesn't and you don't finish the film or it's just you know there there's

[01:20:45] [SPEAKER_04]: so much that can go wrong and then you then if it doesn't go wrong you get just truly screwed you lose

[01:20:51] [SPEAKER_04]: your rights you just you you're you may make it get distribution think you're winning and then

[01:20:57] [SPEAKER_04]: just never see it die and now you're just for the rest of your the next decade you're just

[01:21:03] [SPEAKER_04]: trying to make back what you lost on something that you spent so much like there's just so many

[01:21:08] [SPEAKER_04]: sad and horror stories that i'm sure the reddit's just full of just the end like indy film is

[01:21:13] [SPEAKER_04]: just to where people really are sad and depressed in that field and yeah and i feel really bad so

[01:21:21] [SPEAKER_04]: it's like if you think it's bad in comics like the worst thing that happens is just

[01:21:25] [SPEAKER_04]: you know it's you lose a little bit of time and money and it's not like life ending don't

[01:21:33] [SPEAKER_04]: take out a second mortgage or whatever uh to try to invest in that's what sucks though is because

[01:21:40] [SPEAKER_04]: you're you you're passionate like it's it's your it's your baby it's the ultimate thing and like i was

[01:21:47] [SPEAKER_04]: saying in the beginning where i was saying just just take the risk and go all in and just make

[01:21:51] [SPEAKER_04]: it the best thing possible that's possible for comics you know uh 10 grand 20 grand is not the

[01:22:00] [SPEAKER_04]: same as 200 you know when when you're going all in on those levels of numbers uh no matter

[01:22:07] [SPEAKER_04]: how passionate you are it's just if it goes wrong it's it's literally a gamble and you can see uh grandios

[01:22:17] [SPEAKER_04]: dollar signs and oscars or whatever in your mind um but on the other end of that rainbow and

[01:22:24] [SPEAKER_04]: i won't even dive into it but hollywood is also just not what people think it is you know yeah

[01:22:30] [SPEAKER_03]: it is a dark machine yeah i worked in the industry on the tech end of things so at least i have

[01:22:35] [SPEAKER_03]: i have dipped my toe and i know a little bit about it but yeah but circling back to liquid kill

[01:22:41] [SPEAKER_03]: it's absolutely a fantastic book it gets my endorsement so make sure to check in with your

[01:22:45] [SPEAKER_03]: shop or you can hit up massives website i believe because you can buy issues there too yes uh so i i

[01:22:51] [SPEAKER_04]: can send you the links if massive hasn't already but you can for sure get all the issues one

[01:22:58] [SPEAKER_04]: through six physically through massives website yeah that's where i encourage you to go because

[01:23:03] [SPEAKER_04]: that's where i make the most per issue if you buy it from them however you can also get it sometimes

[01:23:08] [SPEAKER_04]: at if it's still at your local comic shop the the the trade um is for available for pre-order the

[01:23:15] [SPEAKER_04]: easiest way to go about it and it doesn't affect me either way is if you just do the one

[01:23:21] [SPEAKER_04]: click link on amazon okay you can also go to your comic shops and pre-order it through them

[01:23:27] [SPEAKER_04]: and i can pull up the codes if people want to know uh there's two different trade covers there's

[01:23:34] [SPEAKER_04]: actually the gabriel yuma's arcs sort of golden cover that's the main cover but there's also a

[01:23:42] [SPEAKER_04]: limited print run of tony and fontes cover which was the original sort of neon pink purple

[01:23:50] [SPEAKER_04]: what was the original cover a of issue one it's a beautiful cover they also so they're doing

[01:23:56] [SPEAKER_04]: a limited print run of that and that's available through comic shops i think both of them are you

[01:24:02] [SPEAKER_04]: can get through comic shops or uh bookstores so you can do it through amazon you can do it also

[01:24:09] [SPEAKER_04]: through barns and noble and stuff like that but amazon's probably easiest or massives website

[01:24:14] [SPEAKER_04]: or your own comic shops you just use the order code j un two four one zero three five

[01:24:23] [SPEAKER_04]: and if you want the tony and fonte it's uh three six instead of three five at the end

[01:24:29] [SPEAKER_04]: and the very easiest if you ignore everything i just said and i did you just one place you go

[01:24:35] [SPEAKER_04]: all the links are on my website which is hoven crow dot com okay not a law firm it's a ho it's

[01:24:42] [SPEAKER_04]: an entertainment company but yeah hoven crow dot com right on the homepage i have the links to

[01:24:46] [SPEAKER_04]: pre-order the the volumes and then also the links if you want to buy the individual issues

[01:24:51] [SPEAKER_04]: i also sign issues and you can buy them directly from the shop on my website and of course that's

[01:24:57] [SPEAKER_03]: also where you can buy anything else of mine awesome yeah we'll put the link in the show notes so make

[01:25:01] [SPEAKER_03]: it easier for people max thanks for hanging out with me today on the show it's been a lot of fun

[01:25:05] [SPEAKER_03]: and enlightening i didn't i didn't expect to get into the movie business as much but it's

[01:25:09] [SPEAKER_04]: been really fun sorry yeah once you get me talking i'll never stop that's okay that's okay

[01:25:15] [SPEAKER_04]: because that's the thing i just i have a little bit of knowledge and i just want people to know

[01:25:20] [SPEAKER_04]: sometimes it comes across as if i think i know everything i know i don't know everything uh

[01:25:25] [SPEAKER_04]: and that's why i just try to give everybody a little bit because it's fun i mean i like doing this

[01:25:31] [SPEAKER_04]: and i and you know it to a lot of people especially me it's like this is a dream yeah so

[01:25:36] [SPEAKER_04]: if i'm living the dream and people want to like you want to talk to me about it

[01:25:40] [SPEAKER_04]: i'm passionate about it so i just ramble that's okay like i think if more people shared it would

[01:25:46] [SPEAKER_03]: be easier lots less pain for people lots less so i i really appreciate it i think it's fantastic

[01:25:54] [SPEAKER_03]: i'll put the links in there uh to the youtube channel so people can go check that out but uh

[01:25:59] [SPEAKER_03]: this is bernon kneel and on behalf of all of us at comic book yeti thanks for tuning in and we'll

[01:26:03] [SPEAKER_03]: see you next time take care everybody this is bernon kneel one of your hosts of the cryptic

[01:26:08] [SPEAKER_03]: creator corner brought to you by comic book yeti we hope you've enjoyed this episode of our

[01:26:13] [SPEAKER_03]: podcast please rate review subscribe all that good stuff it lets us know how we're doing and more

[01:26:20] [SPEAKER_03]: importantly how we can improve thanks for listening if you enjoyed this episode of the cryptic

[01:26:27] [SPEAKER_00]: creator corner maybe you would enjoy our sister podcast into the comics k8 listen and subscribe

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