Tom King interview - Black Canary: Best of the Best

[00:00:00] Your ears do not deceive you. You've just entered the Cryptid Creator Corner brought to you by your friends at Comic Book Yeti. So without further ado, let's get on to the interview.

[00:00:10] Hey everyone, this is...

[00:00:13] Hi Byron.

[00:00:14] Who is this?

[00:00:15] I'm your fairy godmother.

[00:00:17] I have a fairy godmother?

[00:00:18] Of course you do.

[00:00:20] I'm 50 years old, why haven't you shown up before?

[00:00:22] I appear when I'm needed.

[00:00:24] And I didn't need you in all these years?

[00:00:27] Do you want my help or not?

[00:00:29] Um...

[00:00:30] Sure.

[00:00:31] Exactly.

[00:00:32] I was just about to pitch our Patreon. Why would I need help with that?

[00:00:36] Because you're an idiot sometimes.

[00:00:38] That's hurtful.

[00:00:40] What were you going to put on there?

[00:00:42] We do comic stuff? So something along those lines?

[00:00:45] And this is why I'm here. You do know what people put on Patreon most of the time, right?

[00:00:52] Honestly, no.

[00:00:54] People need something a little bit spicy to entice them to support you.

[00:00:59] Nobody wants to see me shirtless.

[00:01:01] I doubt that's true. You are in pretty good shape considering your age.

[00:01:06] Thank you. Let's see. A little spicy. I've been bugging Jimmy to figure out what he's going to do.

[00:01:12] I know lately he's been playing around with his **** all the time.

[00:01:16] He loves to take it out and show it off. There's even a specific TikTok channel now. How's that sound?

[00:01:21] Not a bad start. People like Jimmy. What else you got?

[00:01:24] I told a story recently about being in a strip club with some of the four horsemen when I was working for WCW back in the day.

[00:01:30] I picked up an infection on my-

[00:01:32] From the experience, I hate strip clubs. Is that better?

[00:01:37] Getting there. But maybe spicy shouldn't include infections you get in strip clubs.

[00:01:42] That's not sexy. We'll workshop it.

[00:01:46] Like I need more meating.

[00:01:47] At least tell them where to find it while we figure this out. Mother goddess, help this poor man.

[00:01:53] You can find us on Patreon at cryptidcreatorcornerpod. I'll put it in the show notes.

[00:01:58] Anything else you'd like to remind me that I'm bad at?

[00:02:01] How much time do you have?

[00:02:03] Why do you look like Rosario Dawson anyway?

[00:02:05] I appear the way you want me to look.

[00:02:07] Okay, that's disturbing.

[00:02:09] Wait, have you been showing up in my dreams?

[00:02:12] I'll never tell.

[00:02:14] And we're done here.

[00:02:17] Y'all, Jimmy the Chaos Goblin strikes again.

[00:02:20] I should have known better than to mention I was working on my DC Universe meets Ravenloft hybrid D&D campaign on social media.

[00:02:27] My bad.

[00:02:28] He goes and tags a bunch of comics creators we know, and now I have to get it in gear and whip this campaign into shape so we could start playing.

[00:02:35] Another friend chimes in, are you going to make maps?

[00:02:38] It's fair to say it's been a while since I put something together, so I guess? Question mark?

[00:02:43] It was then that I discovered Arkhamforge. If you don't know who Arkhamforge is, they have everything you need to make your TTRPG more fun and immersive.

[00:02:51] Allowing you to build, play, and export animated maps, including in-person fog of war capability that lets your players interact with maps as the adventure unfolds while you, the DM, get the full picture.

[00:03:04] Now I'm set to easily build high-res animated maps, saving myself precious time and significantly adding nuance to our campaign.

[00:03:12] That's a win every day in my book.

[00:03:14] Check them out at Arkhamforge.com and use the discount code YETI5 to get $5 off.

[00:03:20] I'll drop a link in the show notes for you.

[00:03:22] And big thanks to Arkhamforge for partnering with our show.

[00:03:25] I think I'm going to make Jimmy play a goblin warlock just to get even.

[00:03:29] Hello and welcome to Comic Book Yeti's Cryptid Creator Corner.

[00:03:32] I'm one of your hosts, Jimmy Gasparo, and I'm very excited for tonight's guest.

[00:03:37] This is their third time on the podcast, which I'm very excited about.

[00:03:43] It's always a joy to talk to him.

[00:03:45] And this is part of Comic Book Yeti branching out a little from Indie Comics, and I'm doing my DC December.

[00:03:52] We've had episodes from Philip Kennedy Johnson, Christopher Cantwell, Christian Ward, Chris Condon, Jeremy Adams, and my next guest, who is the writer, along with artist Ryan Sook of the new Black Canary, Best of the Best.

[00:04:07] Please welcome to the podcast, Tom King.

[00:04:09] Tom, how are you doing tonight?

[00:04:11] I'm doing fantastically well.

[00:04:13] Thank you for having me on.

[00:04:14] I mean, it's an absolute world to me.

[00:04:15] You're spreading the word on comics that you're venturing into the mainstream out of the indie world, although I just got my hardcover of Hell out of Windhorn first copy, and it is beautiful.

[00:04:27] So have me on to talk about my indie.

[00:04:30] Thank God, the most beautiful book I've ever watched.

[00:04:33] Yeah, I mean, it really is.

[00:04:35] I think at one point when you were on, we talked about it a little, and yeah, Bilquis Ebley's work on it, the colors in it, it's Matthias Lopez, if I'm saying his name correctly, and Clayton Cowell's letters it.

[00:04:52] I actually, I just, I had-

[00:04:53] You know the random letter of Helen of Windhorn?

[00:04:57] Damn, man, that is a deep cut.

[00:04:58] I do, so random.

[00:04:59] Well done, well done.

[00:05:00] It's so random.

[00:05:01] Um, but I, yeah, I had, I, I realized I don't think I had read issues five and six, and I, I just, I just read them earlier today.

[00:05:11] But yeah, it is such a, it is such a beautiful, I mean, beautiful comic.

[00:05:16] Like, it's one of those comics where, I mean, every page you could, you know, print it out, put it up on a wall.

[00:05:24] It's just absolutely beautiful.

[00:05:26] And, um, yeah.

[00:05:27] Yeah.

[00:05:27] Yeah.

[00:05:27] Out of her, out of her mind drawing that thing.

[00:05:29] I wrote her a note for issue five, which is kind of random because it's a six issue series.

[00:05:33] And I was like, this may be the prettiest, best drawn comic I've ever worked on.

[00:05:37] I've worked on so many, maybe even read.

[00:05:40] I was like, but don't tell Mitch that Mitch is my favorite person in the world.

[00:05:43] So don't tell Mitch.

[00:05:45] Yeah.

[00:05:45] I mean, the, the, the artwork of, uh, of Helen of Windhorn is, is, is incredible, but yeah, I, I, I love it.

[00:05:53] Um, folks should, should go and check it out.

[00:05:55] And, um, yeah, it, it, it, it, it really, the end of that series, I don't want to give anything away, but man, I was, it, it, it.

[00:06:04] And there's like a nice build to that series.

[00:06:07] And then I, I felt like issue six, like just came like screaming by at, at, at such a pace.

[00:06:14] I got to the end of it and I was ready for, I was still ready for more.

[00:06:18] And I was like, went right back and like reread the last couple of pages.

[00:06:22] It, what a, what a beautiful series.

[00:06:25] It was very much written to be the first chapter or first entrance into a bigger world.

[00:06:29] So if you wanted more, that's cause I wanted you.

[00:06:32] Thank you.

[00:06:33] Now I just got to buy another five years for Bill gets to draw the next one.

[00:06:39] Yeah, I can't imagine.

[00:06:41] Like there's just, I don't know if I think it's issue five, but I know we'll talk about DC in a second listeners, but, um, we got on Helena Windhorn.

[00:06:49] Um, we're an indie comics podcast, you know, usually what do you, what do you expect?

[00:06:53] I think it's issue five.

[00:06:55] There's one scene, um, where that they just, uh, Helen and her grandfather just like come.

[00:07:02] Um, out of the, the other world and they're walking towards, um, the house.

[00:07:09] I think it might be after they do that underwater adventure.

[00:07:12] Yeah.

[00:07:13] And I mean, my God, it's like that, that panel, that whole page really is just gorgeous.

[00:07:20] Um, yeah.

[00:07:22] And I, I guarantee you my script was something like Helen and Othin walk towards house panel one.

[00:07:31] Uh, yeah.

[00:07:32] All the rest is her.

[00:07:34] Oh yeah.

[00:07:34] I, I deserve zero credit for the transcendence of that beauty.

[00:07:39] Yeah.

[00:07:40] But this is my year of any comments.

[00:07:41] Cause I have Helen is coming out in its collection.

[00:07:44] Yeah.

[00:07:44] Uh, this spring.

[00:07:45] And then I've got, um, animal pound coming out right after that.

[00:07:49] So I got, I got the one, two indie punch.

[00:07:52] Nice.

[00:07:53] Yeah.

[00:07:54] That's fantastic.

[00:07:55] Eventually love everlasting volume three, which the third volume got delayed for a long time.

[00:08:00] I didn't read my emails.

[00:08:02] Don't tell him.

[00:08:03] I won't.

[00:08:04] It's it'll be, it'll be my secret.

[00:08:06] Um, it'll be our secret.

[00:08:08] Uh, but yeah.

[00:08:09] So they're turning now to DC comics.

[00:08:13] Um, you've been, yeah.

[00:08:16] Oh, detective comics, comics, um, comics.

[00:08:21] I asked, you know, I, I was at something with the DC historian and I asked him, I was like,

[00:08:29] why did they call it detective comics instead of action comics?

[00:08:34] Since that's a much better thing to call a comic book company.

[00:08:37] And he, he did not know the answer.

[00:08:39] It remains.

[00:08:40] It remains a mystery.

[00:08:42] Because comics mystery, a comics mystery.

[00:08:45] I, cause if anyone's ever, I got to meet Stanley, I'm going to drop names at the very

[00:08:49] beginning a few times, but the first time I met him, Stanley was like, there was the like

[00:08:55] public Stanley, right?

[00:08:56] Like the, the one he projected.

[00:08:57] And he basically had like seven speeches.

[00:09:00] And if you said the right sort of phrase, he would launch into one of the seven speeches.

[00:09:03] And one of his seven speeches was, if you said I work for DC comics, he had a speech

[00:09:07] on why DC comics suck.

[00:09:10] And so I said, I work for DC comics and he's like,

[00:09:13] Excelsior DC comics sucks.

[00:09:14] And I was like, why is that Stanley?

[00:09:17] And he's like, he's like, because it has a terrible name.

[00:09:20] Nobody wants to buy DC comics.

[00:09:21] What does it even mean?

[00:09:22] Marvel, Marvel captures your mind.

[00:09:25] And I was like, I'm sure you can find him on YouTube saying this.

[00:09:29] He said, it's a billion people.

[00:09:31] Uh, and, and I, I was, I was like, God damn Stanley.

[00:09:34] I know this is just answer number seven, but it is God damn true.

[00:09:37] You're right.

[00:09:38] Marvel is a much.

[00:09:39] I was like, if we were called action comics, it'd be so much cooler than DC.

[00:09:43] Um, I think they're stuck with it now though.

[00:09:47] They're stuck.

[00:09:47] Yeah.

[00:09:47] We're, we're just, we're detective comics comics forever.

[00:09:51] Um, well, you've been writing wonder woman and penguin.

[00:09:56] Yes.

[00:09:57] And now your new series, which is we record this issue one is going to be out tomorrow, November 27th.

[00:10:03] Um, black canary best of the best.

[00:10:08] Uh, yeah, I'm really excited about this too.

[00:10:11] It from everything I've seen, you're, you're pitting black canary and lady Shiva against each other in like a WWE style fight, uh, boxing match to no holds barred situation.

[00:10:27] Um, it does tell me how, just tell listeners like, what is the, I guess, general premise of the story and how this, you know, came about.

[00:10:36] Why, you know, why was black canary the next character that you're, you're taking on here?

[00:10:43] Uh, the idea comes from two different places.

[00:10:46] Uh, number one, it goes back to an old, uh, conference or assembly of writers.

[00:10:52] We had a long time ago, Batman writers like a decade ago.

[00:10:55] It was me and Scott Snyder and Becky Cloonan.

[00:10:59] Uh, I think Josh Williamson was there.

[00:11:01] James Tynan was there.

[00:11:03] And, uh, and we got into like planning the next event.

[00:11:06] And one of this events we were going to plan, which never happened was called night fight night with a K because we're such clever writers.

[00:11:14] And, uh, and it was going to be each Batman character fighting each other in kind of a, you know, a tournament style where until one would emerge as the best Batman family member fighter.

[00:11:24] And as we kind of were debating and the nerdiest of nerdy ways, but with like very good nerds of who would win this fight, who would win that fight.

[00:11:32] I was on Grayson at the time.

[00:11:33] So I thought Grayson would want to fight Scott was on Batman.

[00:11:36] He's like, then Batman would win all the fights.

[00:11:38] Um, and I think, well, Becky was on Batgirl.

[00:11:41] And so as that was back in.

[00:11:44] And as we're talking about like who actually would win all these fights and it was brought up, um, uh, that the top fighter in the DC universe hand to hand combat, uh, was Lady Shiva.

[00:11:55] And he would be the number one because she trained Batman even.

[00:11:58] And then the number two or several, and someone raises topics that the number two generally and canonically was, was black Canary is like, that's very odd.

[00:12:06] Cause I don't think of black Canary is like, oh yeah, yeah.

[00:12:08] There's some like comic here.

[00:12:10] They're the seventies.

[00:12:11] It says she's the number two.

[00:12:12] And, and that kind of stuck in my head.

[00:12:15] And I was like, that's very bizarre.

[00:12:17] Cause I like black Canary.

[00:12:17] I don't think of course that.

[00:12:18] Okay. And so fast forward 10 years and my son, my teenage son loves WWE.

[00:12:25] It's not my particular nerd, but I was trying not to do what my parents did, which is like, you're into comics.

[00:12:31] That's crazy.

[00:12:32] Go over there.

[00:12:32] You weirdo.

[00:12:33] I was trying to be like, all right, you're into this thing.

[00:12:35] I'm not into it.

[00:12:35] Let me experience it with you.

[00:12:37] Let me like kind of know what it's about research and have fun with you and enjoy it with you.

[00:12:41] And so I sit down and watch a lot of these WWE matches with my kid.

[00:12:43] I took him to a match and I sort of became obsessed with the fact that they were doing all of this storytelling within these sort of four corners of a ring.

[00:12:50] I just, I was amazed by that.

[00:12:52] I was like, could you do that in comics?

[00:12:54] You know, I grew up in the nineties when there were all sorts of, you know, these Van Damme movies and a group of Rocky is a great fighter boxing movies.

[00:13:01] I was like, I want to try that.

[00:13:02] I want to write a sports movie.

[00:13:03] I want to write a contest book.

[00:13:05] Um, but who was going to be the content?

[00:13:07] And I was like, and then it probably was like, Oh yeah, I'll use the best fighter of the DCU against the second best.

[00:13:12] And we'll do the, who's the best fighter, the contender against the champion.

[00:13:16] And that's how it became black Canary versus lady Shiva.

[00:13:19] And so that's what this book is.

[00:13:21] It's it's six issues.

[00:13:23] It's six rounds of these two fighters in the ring fighting this huge fight drawn by Ryan.

[00:13:29] So it's going to, if anything passes hell out of windhorn for best looking book of the year, it's going to be this one.

[00:13:33] It's beautiful.

[00:13:34] He's just every issue and it's a knock down bloody as fuck.

[00:13:38] Sorry.

[00:13:38] It's bloody as fudge fight.

[00:13:40] Uh, it's okay.

[00:13:41] You can curse.

[00:13:42] I can cuss.

[00:13:43] Oh, well then it's bloody as fuck.

[00:13:44] It's even if it's, it's much bloodier than fudge.

[00:13:46] It's bloody as fuck fight.

[00:13:49] And while they're fighting, um, cause it's, it's very weird.

[00:13:52] It's, it's a publicized match.

[00:13:54] It's in Vegas that people are betting money on it.

[00:13:56] While they're fighting, we flashback to the training for the match and to, and to all of sort of black Canary's life.

[00:14:02] And it's the sort of deep character dive and who black Canary is and how she got to this moment and why she has to win this match.

[00:14:08] Um, and, and that's her deal with her relationship with her mother, who was also black.

[00:14:12] That's a long winded explanation for it's just, it's two women in the ring to determine who the best Panda in combat fighter.

[00:14:19] Uh, no, I mean, I, I, I love, I love the, I, the idea.

[00:14:24] I love the premise.

[00:14:25] Um, and yeah, I know knowing some of your work, I would expect it to, you know, if you have two fighters that are fairly evenly matched, I would have to imagine it would make it, you know, not that Brian's artwork, uh, wouldn't be exciting in terms of the fight choreography, but you know, to really even make it more interesting.

[00:14:44] It would seem like there would have to be some piece of like a, you know, a character driven piece.

[00:14:48] Otherwise, you know, it could get a little stale no matter how cool the fighting looks, right?

[00:14:54] A hundred percent.

[00:14:54] I could get to, I stole a little bit from an old Kevin Costner movie, the, a perfect game, I believe it's called, where it's about him pitching a perfect game, which is not that interesting, but in it, he sort of flashes through his entire career to show you how, what this perfect game means to him.

[00:15:09] And, and so that like through the flashbacks, the stakes of the game actually raised, uh, which is, which was, I thought was just a genius little screenplay.

[00:15:17] And, um, so, so that it, it, it, although the sort of main there's the, a story takes place in the ring and there are moments in the rings and there are ups and downs and sold like any sort of, you know, like a Rocky type movie.

[00:15:29] The bulk of the story, the heart of the story are in these flashbacks and sort of her relationship with her mother and her relationship with herself and her establishing who she is as a person.

[00:15:38] And, you know, like every fucking thing I do, it's deeply emotional.

[00:15:42] It's deeply personal.

[00:15:43] Um, it, it, it, it'll make you laugh and it really is going to make you cry at some points.

[00:15:48] Um, sort of to see her, her journey to the moment of her, of, of what it takes to, um, to win this match.

[00:15:55] Cause at some point, you know, when you're evenly matched with the best fighter in the world, it's like, it's not about skill.

[00:16:01] It's about soul.

[00:16:03] You know, it's about getting back up off that man.

[00:16:05] So what, what makes, you know, Diana Lance's soul is what this movie is, what this book's about.

[00:16:10] I keep calling it a movie because I see it as a movie in my head, but it sounds very cinematic when you describe it.

[00:16:16] So it is, but it has a very, I mean, for any college, just to picture any, it has like an indie comics vibe because it's not about, it's got a ton of action, but it's not about the solution being punch someone harder or solve the mystery.

[00:16:29] The solution is about, is, is, is about sort of knowing who you are and exploring.

[00:16:34] So the questions of, you know, why, why you exist and why you are this way, both sort of psychologically and philosophically in the great tradition of Indiecom.

[00:16:45] I wanted to ask you about like the WWE of it all.

[00:16:48] Cause you said that's not your particular nerd and your, yeah, that you said your son was, was getting into it.

[00:16:52] Um, had you ever been like a, a wrestling fan or, you know, even tangentially?

[00:17:00] I mean, I, yeah, I, I was going to say, I asked cause I watched wrestling like growing up as a kid and then didn't for years.

[00:17:07] And this past year, my cousin Jack wanted to go to WrestleMania for his 40th birthday.

[00:17:15] He lives in Florida.

[00:17:17] His wife flew him up here, bought tickets.

[00:17:19] My brother and I went to WrestleMania and I think it was the first wrestling.

[00:17:23] You went to WrestleMania.

[00:17:24] It was in Philly this year.

[00:17:26] Yeah.

[00:17:26] It was in Philly.

[00:17:27] Yeah.

[00:17:27] I watched it.

[00:17:28] Yeah.

[00:17:29] So I, it was, but I, I don't think I was jumping on stage.

[00:17:32] Come on.

[00:17:32] It was crazy.

[00:17:33] Yeah.

[00:17:33] Yeah.

[00:17:34] I don't think I watched wrestling and like, since I graduated college.

[00:17:39] So like 2001, maybe a little after 2002.

[00:17:42] So it'd been like 20 years.

[00:17:44] I had no idea what was going on.

[00:17:45] And I got, I went to WrestleMania, but I was surprised.

[00:17:49] Like, I think I watched raw from like the, the, the Monday before WrestleMania just to see who was who.

[00:17:57] And it was like shocking how I went to the second night of WrestleMania, the Sunday night.

[00:18:03] And I was like, just shocked how quickly, like I got, you know, back into it.

[00:18:08] And I'm like, all right, who are the faces?

[00:18:11] Who are the heels?

[00:18:12] Like, who are we rooting for?

[00:18:14] This guy, somebody came out, Seth Rollins, I think marched out with all the mummers.

[00:18:20] So I can't like Seth Rollins.

[00:18:22] Cause I have a long time grudge against the mummers.

[00:18:24] And so if you're with the mummers, you're against me.

[00:18:28] So I didn't root for Seth, but yeah, I was like surprised how quickly I got into it.

[00:18:33] So I'm kind of curious, like, well, did you have any relationship to like wrestling as a fan at all prior?

[00:18:39] Or was it just one of the dad things of trying to connect with my kid?

[00:18:43] I mean, I, I, I'm a little, I'm a little young for the height of like the Hulk Hogan area.

[00:18:51] Well, era when wrestling truly crossed over into pop culture.

[00:18:56] But that was there when I was a child.

[00:18:58] So like, you know, junkyard dog and Hulk Hogan and Andre the Giant.

[00:19:02] Like, I don't know.

[00:19:03] They're just people who existed in pop culture.

[00:19:05] And I knew that there were such a thing as wrestling, but no, I never, I, I, I never watched, watched it on a regular basis.

[00:19:13] If it was on the TV, I'd be like, why aren't we watching cartoons?

[00:19:16] Um, I think I suffered from that very common thing of like, I don't understand it.

[00:19:21] It's just fake.

[00:19:22] Why do I care?

[00:19:24] Right.

[00:19:25] Um, which, which I think is, is a barrier to a lot of people getting into the sport.

[00:19:29] Uh, and it wasn't until I was with my kid, my kids like, I was like, well, it's just fake.

[00:19:34] And my kid explains it.

[00:19:34] Yeah, I know it's fake, but all stories are fake.

[00:19:37] Dad.

[00:19:37] I was like, and he's like, you see that guy lifting that other dude?

[00:19:41] He's really lifting him.

[00:19:42] Ain't no ropes.

[00:19:43] That's not fake.

[00:19:44] Like, and I'm like, Oh, Oh.

[00:19:47] So it's like another kind of bizarre.

[00:19:50] It's, it's, it's like, it's, it's some sports mixed with theater.

[00:19:54] It's, it exists in like this wonderful like zone where it's half real and half not real.

[00:19:58] And they're all in on it.

[00:20:00] Um, so you know, no, I had, I had no experience until I was watching.

[00:20:03] And then I got super into it, man.

[00:20:04] I was like, I was like, when's Cody going to finish his story?

[00:20:07] And, oh, and I, I, I love Roman Reigns.

[00:20:10] He does the spear and the symbol.

[00:20:11] It's like, yeah, you can't like Roman Reigns.

[00:20:13] He's the most popular wrestler.

[00:20:14] Like he's cool.

[00:20:16] Um, and yeah, no, I, and then I can't do anything without diving in.

[00:20:22] So then I was watching, like, you know, I watched like the whole Hulu series about,

[00:20:26] you know, behind the scenes wrestling.

[00:20:28] And I watched like 13 peacock documentaries and it's about the history.

[00:20:32] And I started reading like a book on the WCW fall apart.

[00:20:36] And yeah.

[00:20:36] So then I just, I, I dove in headfirst.

[00:20:39] Yeah.

[00:20:39] Um, so now I know too much about, not too much, but now I know a lot of it.

[00:20:43] It's all within the last few years.

[00:20:45] Well, I would think there would be something very attractive.

[00:20:49] Um, you know, I could be wrong, but it just in terms of some of the things that you have

[00:20:55] written before about, you know, like Cody Rhodes story, like here you have like a legacy

[00:21:01] character with, you know, his, his, his life has played out in terms of the relationship

[00:21:05] with his father on like through wrestling throughout the years.

[00:21:10] He has to leave, leave the company, go somewhere else, basically start his own thing.

[00:21:16] Then, then come back to take on like Roman reigns.

[00:21:20] I know that, that, that element of fighting, but also that family dynamic seems right up Tom

[00:21:27] King's alley.

[00:21:28] Like, yeah, no, I, I, I absolutely adored that story.

[00:21:32] Uh, I mean, wrestling and comics, I mean, it's a Zen diagram of their fan base and it's a

[00:21:36] circle.

[00:21:37] Like, and it makes sense to me.

[00:21:38] I mean, it's guys in costumes fighting each other or, you know, men and women in costumes,

[00:21:43] obviously fighting each other.

[00:21:45] And, and usually they're fighting each other for the same reasons we're writing about in

[00:21:49] comics.

[00:21:49] It's usually something to do with vengeance.

[00:21:51] It's usually something to do with, you know, good guy versus bad guy.

[00:21:55] You just do it offensive.

[00:21:57] You know, like, like there's, there's, there's such an overlap and we're both trying to get

[00:22:01] to the emotional pull and we're both aiming at that thing that, I mean, you're going to

[00:22:05] get a lot of in best of the best, which is like that moment where you should lose and

[00:22:11] everything says you should lose and everything says you should stay down and you get back

[00:22:14] up and you find the strength to like fight, you know, one more round and, or one more

[00:22:20] rats.

[00:22:21] Like they're both of us are aiming for that as sort of the climax of our story, which I

[00:22:25] greatly appreciate.

[00:22:26] I'm constantly trying to get to that, to that moment.

[00:22:30] I know.

[00:22:30] I'm sure that Ryan probably had to, um, it, I mean, I know he, I mean, he's phenomenal,

[00:22:37] but you know, probably somewhat had to delve into a little bit more of the, the fight choreography

[00:22:44] in terms of, you know, body positioning, how it looked, all these types of things.

[00:22:49] But in terms of scripting, did you have to deal with any of that?

[00:22:52] Or were, were, were you, you know, had to look at either like wrestling WWE or boxing matches

[00:22:59] or MMA to kind of describe what it is?

[00:23:02] Or did you already have kind of that language from scripting other superhero, other fight stories?

[00:23:09] I mean, Ryan's doing the bulk of the work here.

[00:23:13] He, he, he did a lot of MMA research, a lot of sort of all that stuff.

[00:23:17] Um, I, it, it's not based.

[00:23:21] It's, I don't know, but this is a comic book, so I could make it not the most realistic thing

[00:23:25] ever.

[00:23:25] So it's, it's based on like, what if wrestling was real?

[00:23:29] I mean, obviously wrestling itself is that, but like, you know, they do.

[00:23:32] Like in an MMA, MMA fight, nobody's going to climb to the top ring and jump on you.

[00:23:37] Um, that, that, but in wrestling, it looks really cool.

[00:23:39] And so this is like, what if, what if WWE movie moves worked in an, in an MMA type of experience?

[00:23:46] So it's, so it's a mix of it.

[00:23:47] It's a mix of the two.

[00:23:49] Like, like obviously when someone jumps off, jumps off the top rope and on top of something,

[00:23:53] the point of that is for the person who's jumping to absorb most of the blow and not transfer

[00:23:58] to the person underneath them or else they would kill them.

[00:24:01] Uh,

[00:24:02] but in this one we have lady, she would jump off the top rope and she means to transfer

[00:24:06] her momentum into the person underneath her.

[00:24:09] Um, no, but they don't do that in MMA cause it's not the most efficient, I mean, MMA is

[00:24:12] actual real sports.

[00:24:13] So it's not, that's not an efficient way to hurt somebody.

[00:24:16] So it's a combination of the, the, the two of them, if that makes any sense.

[00:24:19] No, no, no, no, no, it does.

[00:24:21] Um, like I have, I have at one point, you know, she takes lady, she ever takes black

[00:24:25] canary and slams her into the steel steps, which is a classic WWE move that you'd ever

[00:24:31] seen in MMA.

[00:24:32] But in our thing, she's actually slamming him to steel steps and like actual like teeth,

[00:24:36] you know, it's like, it's, it's, it's, it's the same, but.

[00:24:40] Mm.

[00:24:41] No, I love it.

[00:24:42] Um, I, I like the combination of the two.

[00:24:45] Well, that's the good thing about comics.

[00:24:46] You know, you can kind of have that fun with it, that, that freedom to kind of mix it up

[00:24:53] a bit, uh, you know, enhance the action.

[00:24:56] All right.

[00:24:56] Let's take a quick break.

[00:24:58] I love comic books.

[00:24:59] Hey, children of the algorithm.

[00:25:00] I wanted to tell you about another great comics related podcast.

[00:25:03] Our friends, Dan, Dwayne, and Sienna with Comics Overtime have a great show that you should

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[00:25:30] This season, they are focused on the history of everyone's favorite Hell's Kitchen vigilante

[00:25:35] Daredevil.

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[00:25:39] You can find them at Comics Overtime on your favorite podcasting platform or at their website,

[00:25:45] comicsovertime.podbean.com.

[00:25:47] I'll drop a link in the show notes to make it easy for you.

[00:25:50] He's a daredevil, Ned.

[00:26:00] After a string of unexplained disappearances in the southern parts of the United States,

[00:26:04] retired Detective Clint searches for his white trash brother.

[00:26:07] While searching for him, he ends up being abducted by aliens.

[00:26:11] He is now in the arena for Big Gun's Stupid Rednecks, an intergalactic cable's newest hit

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[00:26:32] I got a chance to see an advanced preview of this book and being from the south, honestly,

[00:26:36] I was a bit skeptical going in, but they won me over and nothing is more powerful than

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[00:26:52] art, and a whole mess of fun.

[00:26:54] I had a great time reading Big Gun's Stupid Rednecks, and what I thought was going to be

[00:26:58] an indictment of redneck culture quickly showed it was actually a love letter.

[00:27:02] A family mystery, brother pitted against brother, aliens, fighting for profit in a big arena,

[00:27:08] this truly has it all.

[00:27:09] Issue one is out already, but you can still pick up a copy on the Band of Bards website,

[00:27:13] and current issues are available via your previews or lunar order form, or just ask your LCS.

[00:27:18] Don't miss it.

[00:27:19] Let's get back to the show.

[00:27:21] In terms of, I guess, some of the other characters in the DC and some of the other elements of the

[00:27:28] fight, you know, in terms of announcers and other superheroes kind of checking out the

[00:27:36] action.

[00:27:36] I heard there's, we're going to see some of that in this series.

[00:27:41] Yeah, for sure.

[00:27:43] I mean, there's a great double-played splash thing everyone's going to be talking about

[00:27:46] when it comes out tomorrow, where I call it the match of the millennium.

[00:27:51] So it's like, I mean, it's on one hand, it's a terrible time for it to come out because

[00:27:55] it's the day before Thanksgiving.

[00:27:56] But on another hand, it's a great time for it to come out because we just had the Tyson

[00:28:00] Paul fight where you saw what it was like when 100 million people watch an event on TV

[00:28:05] and have to talk about it, and a fight brings people into this.

[00:28:08] So that is what this is.

[00:28:10] It's the match of the millennium.

[00:28:11] So the whole world is watching this.

[00:28:12] The whole multiverse is watching this.

[00:28:13] And so I wrote a scene where all the Justice League are in plain clothes and they're watching

[00:28:21] the fight as if it was just like, you know, a fun Saturday night fight.

[00:28:25] And except for Green Arrow, who's like, what the fuck is going on?

[00:28:27] Why is she in this match?

[00:28:28] It makes no sense.

[00:28:31] That's pretty funny.

[00:28:32] And then Ryan did this beautiful double-page splash with so much storytelling of like, what

[00:28:38] would a, you know, what would a party be like with all the Justice Leaguers?

[00:28:43] Where like, you know, Wonder Woman's bored in a corner and she doesn't get it.

[00:28:47] And Superman's like cooking hot dogs with his eyes.

[00:28:50] And, you know, Hawkman's like really into it.

[00:28:52] And it's very cool.

[00:28:54] It's super nifty.

[00:28:57] Super nifty.

[00:28:58] Yeah, I'm really old.

[00:28:59] Sorry.

[00:28:59] It's fucking awesome.

[00:29:00] It's all right.

[00:29:03] Super nifty's fine.

[00:29:04] You know, we're not going to.

[00:29:05] No, no, I'm bringing faith back.

[00:29:07] Super nifty's fucking the best.

[00:29:09] I fucking own Super nifty.

[00:29:11] Okay.

[00:29:11] You know, I'm going to make a new comic called Super nifty and coming on your show.

[00:29:15] Super nifty is going to be the biggest fucking thing next year.

[00:29:18] They'll be like, holy shit.

[00:29:18] Have you read King Super nifty?

[00:29:20] It's really super nifty.

[00:29:22] Really, really good.

[00:29:24] Yeah.

[00:29:24] Super.

[00:29:25] It really hits the nifty more than most comics.

[00:29:28] So, yes, it's very cool.

[00:29:32] And then, as I said, obviously it's Sheva and her in the ring.

[00:29:35] But we flashback and through those flashbacks, you know, we see, you know, there's, there's

[00:29:39] Ollie content.

[00:29:40] You see a bunch of Ollie stuff.

[00:29:41] You see Batman.

[00:29:43] You see various sort of characters reacting to sort of this whole thing.

[00:29:47] Obviously, Wildcats and Wildcats famously, you know, close to Canary in terms of his like

[00:29:52] boxing experience and being one of her trainers.

[00:29:56] So, yeah.

[00:29:56] So there's, there's a lot of other DC characters that come in and out of the book.

[00:30:00] Oh, that's awesome.

[00:30:02] Yeah.

[00:30:03] And then I did hear there's also because it's like televised, you have announcers that are

[00:30:10] like, you know, the play by play and a Cullen commentator too.

[00:30:13] Right.

[00:30:13] I, I, because I saw some previews that they look, I mean, it sounds pretty cool, but did

[00:30:19] you, you know, was that like channeling like you watching wrestling?

[00:30:24] Like, is this like a, I almost said Lawler and JR, but they don't do it anymore.

[00:30:28] That was 20 years ago.

[00:30:30] I don't even know who the ring announcers are now at WWE, but in particular you were

[00:30:35] channeling for those guys.

[00:30:36] I was channeling them.

[00:30:38] Now I don't watch a lot of wrestling, but what I do watch is a lot of football.

[00:30:42] Um, and so football obviously is the play by play in the car and the color commentator.

[00:30:47] So I, I, I took a lot, I took some from wrestling and a lot from pro football.

[00:30:53] Um, like over the, you know, like, you know, Alan, Al Michaels and Chris Collinsworth kind

[00:30:58] of dynamic where like, you know, one's a little calmer, one's super over the top and they're

[00:31:03] trying to go back and forth and, and say their catchphrases.

[00:31:07] The idea of course was, I'm trying to find like a way to tell this story.

[00:31:11] That's dynamic and interesting.

[00:31:12] Cause if you just have them fighting, I don't believe in having fighting where people are

[00:31:17] talking to each other during fighting.

[00:31:19] Cause I think it would be very silly if they were having these conversations and kicking

[00:31:22] like it, it, it messes up the time lapse of the whole thing.

[00:31:26] Um, so I, I was like, I need captions or I need something, or I mean, I could leave them

[00:31:31] blank and have it be, you know, no dialogue scenes, but you would read them so fast and

[00:31:36] they would have very little impact if there were no dialogue.

[00:31:39] Um, so just in looking for some different way, I'm always looking for a different way

[00:31:43] to do narration, to do caption narration.

[00:31:46] And I was like, what if the narration for the whole book, both flashbacks and present

[00:31:49] day was sort of these two super silly announcers.

[00:31:53] Um, what one of whom is doing is like idiotic catchphrases and is way over the top.

[00:31:59] And the other one who's way over top and really hates black Canary for no good reason.

[00:32:02] Like that experience of watching a football game when you just like, why does this guy

[00:32:06] fucking hate the commanders?

[00:32:07] I don't get it.

[00:32:08] Joe Buck and the Philadelphia Eagles.

[00:32:10] Yeah.

[00:32:10] It's Joe Buck.

[00:32:11] Exactly.

[00:32:12] Joe Buck and the Philadelphia Eagles.

[00:32:13] They're just like, why are you throwing my team under the bus over and over again?

[00:32:17] Um, so, so I, I, I invented these two announcers, Mike Berg and wordy

[00:32:22] John.

[00:32:24] Um, and they're, they're horribly silly.

[00:32:28] They have catchphrases.

[00:32:29] Mike Berg's catchphrase is, oh my, an apple pie, which is way too much.

[00:32:36] Oh my, an apple pie.

[00:32:40] Um, uh, I think my, my wife's a big white socks fan and they have all those, the white

[00:32:45] socks have very interesting announcers.

[00:32:46] Like, you know, they do like all these like sort of white socks only phrases like duck

[00:32:49] snort.

[00:32:51] Um, and so, yeah, so, and they run throughout the whole thing.

[00:32:54] And then, and then as you know, we switch to the past, sometimes the narration will

[00:32:58] go over that.

[00:32:58] So you'll be seeing the past, but you'll still be getting the match and you'll see, you know,

[00:33:02] then I can play with little metaphors and stuff where something's happening in the

[00:33:04] match that kind of parallels what's happening.

[00:33:07] So it gives me a lot of freedom.

[00:33:09] The real problem was that I way overrode it.

[00:33:11] Um, I wrote, I wrote this for Ryan all together.

[00:33:16] I wrote all six issues at once.

[00:33:17] I, but Ryan was given the whole, all six issues before he started drawing one panel.

[00:33:24] Um, so in, in that, once I started to see the art come in, which was, you know, later,

[00:33:31] I noticed that I just had written way too much dialogue for, for the announcer.

[00:33:35] So each issue I'm stripping out and stripping out and you still read it and you're like, wow,

[00:33:38] Tom, there's so many balloons in this thing.

[00:33:40] I was like, oh my God, you don't even know.

[00:33:42] It's half of what used to be there.

[00:33:44] Um, so that, that was the problem.

[00:33:45] I just, I, I overrode it a little bit.

[00:33:47] Um, and I hadn't had to, well, I wanted Ryan's art to be the star, not in my word.

[00:33:53] Well, I mean, I, I think you were on here once where you're saying you used to have

[00:33:57] one shit comics and now you wanted two shit comics.

[00:33:59] So I guess that's in keeping with a two shit comic.

[00:34:03] This is, this is maybe a three shit comic.

[00:34:06] This is, this is, I'm breaking new ground.

[00:34:10] No, this is, I don't want to say it's the, this is like, I had some bad milk.

[00:34:15] I'm going to be on the toilet for a while, honey.

[00:34:17] Like this is, yeah, this, that, that's this, this is that kind of comic.

[00:34:21] Yeah.

[00:34:21] All right.

[00:34:22] Well, this is like, like you, you get home four in the morning.

[00:34:26] Um, you've passed drunk.

[00:34:28] You've entered.

[00:34:28] I need to throw up and I'm going to be in the, I'm going to be in the bathroom for a good

[00:34:31] hour and a half until something happens.

[00:34:33] Because.

[00:34:33] Right.

[00:34:34] That's you, you can probably take you probably once I'm done, going to lay down on the tile

[00:34:39] floor.

[00:34:39] Yeah.

[00:34:40] That's right.

[00:34:42] That's a pillow.

[00:34:43] And then you read this Tom King comic.

[00:34:45] Yeah.

[00:34:46] I'll use it to rest my head.

[00:34:48] Yeah.

[00:34:49] The little thing.

[00:34:50] It's 28 pages.

[00:34:51] It's a little thicker.

[00:34:51] So you get a little more, you get a little more.

[00:34:53] Um, uh, it, not just the, uh, the conversation from the, um, I guess the, the Batman summit

[00:35:01] 10 years ago, um, with these two characters, but was there any, any other reason in terms

[00:35:08] of, you know, with the backstory issues and with the, like the character of, of Dinah,

[00:35:14] you know, in Black Canary that you thought would lend itself to the type of story you wanted

[00:35:20] to tell.

[00:35:21] I mean, cause you, you've done a lot with characters where you've kind of gone through

[00:35:26] their, their, their, their past.

[00:35:28] I mean, I noticed in the, in Wonder Woman where you talk about some of the different origins

[00:35:33] that Wonder Woman has had, whether or not it was early on or the new 52 and had like,

[00:35:38] you know, you almost have a commentary on the nature of comics itself within talking

[00:35:44] about the character.

[00:35:45] I just didn't know if there was, I'm not super familiar with all of Black Canary's

[00:35:49] history, you know, somewhat reading Birds of Prey comics and some other things, but was

[00:35:53] there anything in particular that kind of lended itself that you wanted to use Black Canary

[00:35:56] in this way?

[00:35:58] There are three things too, which blends together.

[00:36:00] Number one is, is she has a, she has an incredibly cool look to her.

[00:36:06] Like she has a very distinctive, interesting, like, like she, like, you know, people ask

[00:36:13] why is Batman the most popular character in comics?

[00:36:15] Like part of it is just cause she has a, he has an awesome silhouette.

[00:36:17] He has an awesome costume.

[00:36:18] He looks badass and Black Canary has that.

[00:36:22] And so, and she has a cool attitude and a cool power.

[00:36:24] Like there's so much potential in her becoming just a mainstream, huge, like movie star kind

[00:36:30] of hero.

[00:36:31] So there's that.

[00:36:32] Number two, I, as a comic fan, my, I have to pick one comic.

[00:36:37] Someone's like, what's the best drawn superhero comic of all time?

[00:36:41] Um, and for me, that would be the Alex Toth Black Canary.

[00:36:45] He did a two-parter way back in, um, like issue 419 of Adventure Comics.

[00:36:51] And it's a Black Canary story.

[00:36:52] It just happens to be a Black Canary story.

[00:36:54] And I just think it's the best, um, drawn comic of all time because of that, because of

[00:36:59] how Alex Toth drew her, I could see just, there was so much potential in this character.

[00:37:03] And I, I, that she could be as compelling as the, I would think it was the best drawn

[00:37:06] comic of all time.

[00:37:07] Um, and number three, there's, she has this aspect to her.

[00:37:11] That's the one, the thing that DC has over Marvel, the, like the most interesting theme

[00:37:15] in DC is this idea of legacy.

[00:37:18] Um, the idea of like what we get from our parents and what we give on, what we give

[00:37:23] on to our children.

[00:37:24] And, you know, I, I have obviously this starts with my son and, and, and everything.

[00:37:28] And, and, and so in, in, it took, it took the post-crisis to do this.

[00:37:34] This wasn't original, but obviously Dinah has been around since,

[00:37:38] 1946 or something.

[00:37:39] She's an original golden age character.

[00:37:40] She's as old as Robin.

[00:37:43] Um, and, uh, but at post-crisis because that sort of continuity is net up and the earth

[00:37:49] two, two of it, all that when they merged it back together, they made two Dinah, they

[00:37:53] made two Dinahs, a Dinah Drake and a Dinah Lance that her mother was black Canary.

[00:37:57] And then she became black Canary.

[00:38:00] And that idea of working with the legacy of what it means for your mother to be a superhero

[00:38:05] and using that as a metaphor to talk about parents and children and mothers and daughters

[00:38:10] and the idea of living in your mother's shadow and her wanting you to be what you become.

[00:38:15] And you never sort of being able to satisfy that and how that both motivates you and strangles

[00:38:20] you at the same time.

[00:38:21] It gets deep into your character.

[00:38:23] So there was just, I mean, those three things, you know, just, just an incredibly well-designed,

[00:38:28] cool character.

[00:38:29] You have someone who I knew could be the top and, and, and someone who had just absolute

[00:38:33] huge thematic weight on them made her perfect for, uh, an incredible miniseries.

[00:38:39] Wow.

[00:38:39] Um, well, I mean, I, yeah, that sounds fantastic.

[00:38:43] I can't wait until, uh, I get to read all of issue one.

[00:38:48] It's real good.

[00:38:49] Uh, uh, doc Shainer read it.

[00:38:51] I was nervous about it.

[00:38:52] Then doc doc, I gave doc all the scripts and he read it and he's like, Tom, this is the

[00:38:55] best thing you've ever written.

[00:38:56] And so then I was like, okay, I don't know if that's true or he's blowing smoke on my,

[00:39:00] but at least at least there's one person who I very much respect thinks it's real good.

[00:39:04] So, uh, I can, I can tell you this.

[00:39:05] It's, it's one of the most beautiful comics I've ever done.

[00:39:08] Uh, Ryan Sook is a, is a legend.

[00:39:11] Uh, I think his, uh, X factor work is one of the most influential comics on me as a person.

[00:39:17] Um, and you can go to a thousand different things that he's done besides that.

[00:39:20] Um, but, but, but Sook has been, he'll tell you he's a perfectionist.

[00:39:24] So he takes his time with his books.

[00:39:26] So he hasn't done a run in a long, long time.

[00:39:28] And DC comics, you know, to give them DC comics, detective comics, comics, we're talking

[00:39:33] about to give them credit.

[00:39:35] We're like, we want Sook to draw the whole thing.

[00:39:37] Give him time, give him room, let him do what he wants.

[00:39:40] So I, I mean, I think I wrote this with three years ago or something.

[00:39:44] And Ryan's been working on it ever since.

[00:39:47] And, and DC was patient and they could have launched this book and said, okay, let's

[00:39:51] do fill-ins for, you know, the middle issues and do, and they're like, no, Ryan's going

[00:39:54] to draw every page and, and create a masterpiece.

[00:39:57] And that's what he did.

[00:39:58] So, so, um, it's, it's, it's a Ryan Sook that you haven't seen in a while, which is

[00:40:02] just in every page, Ryan Sook.

[00:40:04] And it's amazing.

[00:40:05] And he's blew it out of the park.

[00:40:09] I can't wait.

[00:40:10] I would even say it's super nifty.

[00:40:11] That's how good I think.

[00:40:12] It's super nifty.

[00:40:13] That's hot.

[00:40:14] High praise.

[00:40:16] I'm saying, but before I let you go, I wanted to ask you something.

[00:40:19] Cause I, you know, you mentioned that you were nervous about the comic.

[00:40:23] You had Doc read it, um, beforehand.

[00:40:27] I was, uh, I was going through reorganizing some comics.

[00:40:30] I was looking for something in my bin.

[00:40:32] And I, I think I had one year at Baltimore, you sign Nightwing number 30, which I think

[00:40:39] was, yeah, that's my first, it was your first.

[00:40:42] Yeah.

[00:40:43] My first superhero comic.

[00:40:45] Yeah.

[00:40:45] It was the last, I think it was the last issue of Nightwing before I guess you and

[00:40:52] Tim started, Tim Seeley, uh, started, started Grayson.

[00:40:56] And I, I, I mean, that was, came out by check May, like May 30th of 2014.

[00:41:02] So, you know, 10 years.

[00:41:04] That is 10 years official, huh?

[00:41:06] Oh, geez.

[00:41:07] Sorry about that.

[00:41:08] Um, one of the things I was wondering, um, you know, because the, the amount of like

[00:41:16] comics you do, and you're someone who's, you know, in terms of like YouTube or social media

[00:41:22] can draw a lot of praise and a lot of heat and criticism.

[00:41:28] And you're also got to a point in 10 years.

[00:41:30] I mean, there's not just people who don't like your work who are, you know, online people

[00:41:35] who love it, but like scholarly, like articles written about some of the comics you've done,

[00:41:40] whether or not it's the comics journal or something along those lines.

[00:41:43] And I was just curious, I mean, do you, do you, do you ever pay attention to any of that?

[00:41:49] And has that changed over the past 10 years?

[00:41:51] Like, did you, did you ever read the comments early on?

[00:41:54] Do you do it now and it doesn't bother you?

[00:41:57] Um, do you still look for that like validation or have you ever, I'm just kind of curious as

[00:42:03] to what your relationship has been to, you know, not, not like regular fans, I guess,

[00:42:10] but like people who, um, are very vocal on social media.

[00:42:15] Has that ever like, what's been your relationship to it then?

[00:42:19] And now looking back in a decade, uh, there is a certain amount of the population that

[00:42:26] super hates me.

[00:42:27] And I've, and I'm, I have no idea why I, I, they, they hate me on such a personal visceral

[00:42:33] level.

[00:42:33] Um, they'll write the meanest things that they could possibly write about any human.

[00:42:38] And I, I'm a dude who like lives with his, you know, I have a wonderful wife.

[00:42:43] I raised my three kids and my dog.

[00:42:45] I've, I lived the most boring life.

[00:42:47] I cannot imagine anyone hating me for all of, as if I'm this horrible monster.

[00:42:53] Um, and, uh, I don't know, it, it, it, it, it boggles my mind.

[00:42:58] I, I don't, I, I don't understand where it comes from.

[00:43:01] I don't understand sort of what's this vibe they can't dig, but, uh, I don't, I don't,

[00:43:05] I don't particularly pay attention to it.

[00:43:08] Um, it doesn't hold me back.

[00:43:10] I don't really have a choice.

[00:43:11] I can't like sit down and be like, oh, I'm not writing today.

[00:43:14] Cause I'm sad that someone yelled at me online.

[00:43:17] Uh, that's not like a, that's not a thing.

[00:43:19] My kids still need to, they still need to go to college.

[00:43:22] Um, I'm a freelance writer and, and, uh, and I write so, uh, no, and it doesn't, it

[00:43:28] doesn't bother me or affect me.

[00:43:30] I know how to turn it off.

[00:43:31] I know how to, you know, the stream.

[00:43:33] I, it's the only thing it does is, is it massively confuses me.

[00:43:36] That's so many people that there is like this, um, I don't know.

[00:43:41] It's, it's, there's, there's a certain amount of population that hates me cause I was in

[00:43:44] the CIA and they think I was a torturer, which I do.

[00:43:46] I was not.

[00:43:47] So it's very bizarre that they think that.

[00:43:50] Um, and then there's a certain amount of population, the things I faked my CIA experience and lied

[00:43:54] about it, which also is not true.

[00:43:58] Uh, so yeah, so I'll get yelled.

[00:44:00] So I'll be like the same day and I'll get yelled at, uh, for, for both things.

[00:44:04] And I'll be like, can you guys talk to each other?

[00:44:06] I don't, I don't know.

[00:44:07] Like, can you just do some rock them, sock them robots?

[00:44:09] Um, so yeah, I, I, I, I, I tend to think it's just a very vocal, very small.

[00:44:17] I don't, I don't know.

[00:44:19] I, I, I can't imagine.

[00:44:21] I write comics that are not to me.

[00:44:23] They don't seem very controversial.

[00:44:24] I don't know.

[00:44:26] I, I, um, I saw something about me hits just some of the people very like, like, like lightning.

[00:44:34] Yeah.

[00:44:34] I was just curious about that, but, um, yeah, I, I would, I'm, I'm very sensitive.

[00:44:39] I don't, I don't, I don't know how some folks do it and you just seem to be one of those,

[00:44:43] those writers that kind of like draws that.

[00:44:46] I think it's a very small, but unfortunately sometimes a vocal part of, uh, online.

[00:44:52] It seems to exist almost in that space where, you know, it's online and it doesn't seem

[00:44:58] like it's, uh, the real world, you know, when people online argue about things and it's

[00:45:03] like, I, I don't think people who go outside, you know, understand what some of these, these

[00:45:09] fights are about, but, um, I think it might possibly just be like six people who live

[00:45:14] in one small town who flipped a coin and just decided, no, it's that guy.

[00:45:20] And they picked me.

[00:45:21] Yeah.

[00:45:21] I don't.

[00:45:22] Well, maybe we can turn them on to, uh, pick it on Tom Taylor or something, you know?

[00:45:27] No, no.

[00:45:28] Bring it.

[00:45:28] I'm perfectly fine.

[00:45:30] I'll take the heat.

[00:45:31] Better me than some, someone who can't handle it.

[00:45:33] I, I don't want it to go to anybody else.

[00:45:36] You know, I, I survived the wedding, the wet, whatever the wedding was the worst.

[00:45:40] Like once I, once I did that, that was like, I, I, I, I survived the wedding.

[00:45:47] I survived, uh, that was heroes in crisis.

[00:45:50] Once I did those two things, you know, that's just like, yeah, I don't know.

[00:45:54] You're going to mostly I, I, it's not, it's really a very small, I just wish they weren't

[00:46:01] so vocal.

[00:46:02] I see sometimes like Tom King, controversial comic book.

[00:46:05] I was like, what have I ever written?

[00:46:06] It's controversial.

[00:46:07] I wrote like fricking Batman fighting people and Superman fight.

[00:46:11] I don't, I don't, I don't see the controversy around me.

[00:46:13] I don't know.

[00:46:14] Yeah.

[00:46:14] What are you going to do?

[00:46:15] Well, I don't know.

[00:46:16] I just keep doing what you're doing.

[00:46:18] I mean, I'm a big fan.

[00:46:19] I've told you that, uh, at a, at a couple of conventions I've met you at and, um, all three

[00:46:25] times now that you've been on the podcast.

[00:46:27] Hey, I, I've read your Batman run and I, I had some of it, but, um,

[00:46:32] I decided I was going to collect it.

[00:46:34] I have, I have, I'm four issues away now, Tom, my local comic shop.

[00:46:39] They were having a big sale on back issues.

[00:46:40] So I'm only four issues away from having your Batman run.

[00:46:43] So.

[00:46:45] Holy crap.

[00:46:46] Which four?

[00:46:47] I'll send them to you.

[00:46:48] Uh, I don't know.

[00:46:49] It's there.

[00:46:50] They're weird ones.

[00:46:51] Just, uh, cause I, I, I, I had most of the, I don't know why I have most of the run from,

[00:46:57] from like the fifties on, I think from the wedding, I think from 50 on I have, and there's

[00:47:04] like four random ones.

[00:47:05] So I got to figure that out.

[00:47:06] But, um, look, I, yeah, I, uh, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a big fan of your work.

[00:47:12] Um, I, I, if anybody who, you know, in the real world, when they find out I'm a lawyer

[00:47:17] who reads comics, like the first thing they say is they still make those.

[00:47:21] And I'm like, they do.

[00:47:23] Uh, and then they're like, it's the best.

[00:47:26] It's the, I've just spent six months in doing Hollywood.

[00:47:29] I started in novels.

[00:47:31] There's nothing better than comics.

[00:47:33] It's a wonderful community.

[00:47:34] Um, it's full of incredibly supportive creators and super fun people.

[00:47:40] And, uh, right now I'm just, I'm all in on just getting back into comics, you know, with,

[00:47:45] with all sort of the tension in the world today, I love sitting back and, you know, I just read

[00:47:49] like Ed Brubaker's new book and it's like taking 10 minutes.

[00:47:53] It's like taking 20 minutes off a whole shit off from all the, the, the horror of everything

[00:47:58] and being there.

[00:47:58] So yeah, no, I, I, I'm the same way.

[00:48:01] I love it.

[00:48:01] I, but I usually, I recommend Mr.

[00:48:03] Miracle, you know, to a lot of people I've said that before on the podcast.

[00:48:06] It's one of my favorites that you've done.

[00:48:08] And, um, yeah, I'm super excited about best of the best, uh, the black canary that's going

[00:48:13] to come out tomorrow and, um, yeah, six issues, you and Ryan so very excited about it.

[00:48:19] And, um, yeah, thanks a lot for coming on the podcast, Tom.

[00:48:23] I really appreciate it.

[00:48:24] I appreciate you, man.

[00:48:25] You're on.

[00:48:26] And have a happy Thanksgiving.

[00:48:27] Have a super nifty Thanksgiving.

[00:48:30] Um, I'm going to do my best.

[00:48:32] Um, all right, listeners, uh, you know what to do.

[00:48:36] Check out black canary best of the best.

[00:48:39] And, uh, you can also volumes one and two of Tom's run on wonder woman are out.

[00:48:45] And I, I think the, at least volume one of the penguin is as well.

[00:48:50] Um, and if you haven't read it, go read Mr.

[00:48:53] Miracle.

[00:48:54] Cause that's, that's my favorite.

[00:48:55] I love that one.

[00:48:56] Oh, well, I mean, and, um, and the human target is excellent as well.

[00:48:59] You and Greg Smallwood just like crushed it on that book.

[00:49:02] There's the Mr.

[00:49:03] Mr.

[00:49:03] Miracle is having a little bit of a surge moment.

[00:49:04] It's very bizarre.

[00:49:05] So yeah, I mean, that's my favorite thing I ever wrote.

[00:49:07] So yeah.

[00:49:08] Mr.

[00:49:08] Miracle is still out there.

[00:49:09] All right.

[00:49:10] Well, thank you listeners.

[00:49:11] Um, I have a happy Thanksgiving.

[00:49:13] I hope you, well, by the time you listen to this, it'll be a Thanksgiving.

[00:49:15] So I hope you had a happy Thanksgiving and, uh, I will see you next time.

[00:49:18] Thank you, sir.

[00:49:21] This is Byron O'Neill.

[00:49:22] One of your hosts of the cryptic creator corner brought to you by comic book Yeti.

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[00:49:29] Please rate review, subscribe all that good stuff.

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