Veronica Agarwal and Lee Durfey-Lavoie Interview - Sink or Swim

[00:00:00] Your ears do not deceive you. You've just entered the Cryptid Creator Corner brought to you by your friends at Comic Book Yeti. So without further ado, let's get on to the interview.

[00:00:11] Y'all, Jimmy the Chaos Goblin strikes again! I should have known better than to mention I was working on my DC Universe meets Ravenloft hybrid D&D campaign on social media. My bad.

[00:00:22] He goes and tags a bunch of comics creators we know, and now I have to get it in gear and whip this campaign into shape so we can start playing.

[00:00:29] Another friend chimes in, are you gonna make maps? It's fair to say it's been a while since I put something together, so I guess? Question mark?

[00:00:38] It was then that I discovered Arkham Forge. If you don't know who Arkham Forge is, they have everything you need to make your TTRPG more fun and immersive.

[00:00:46] Allowing you to build, play, and export animated maps, including in-person, fog-of-war capability that lets your players interact with maps as the adventure unfolds while you, the DM, get the full picture.

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[00:01:06] That's a win every day in my book. Check them out at arkhamforge.com and use the discount code YETI5 to get $5 off.

[00:01:14] I'll drop a link in the show notes for you, and big thanks to Arkham Forge for partnering with our show.

[00:01:19] I think I'm gonna make Jimmy play a goblin warlock just to get even.

[00:01:24] Hello, and welcome to Comic Book YETI's Cryptid Creator Corner.

[00:01:28] I am one of your hosts, Jimmy Gasparo, and I have two guests on the podcast today that I am very excited to talk to.

[00:01:33] We did a written interview for Comic Book YETI some time ago when their first book came out.

[00:01:38] Just roll with it.

[00:01:40] They have a new book that came out recently, which I had the pleasure of reading and enjoyed it just as much as I did.

[00:01:47] Let's just roll with it.

[00:01:49] And so we're gonna talk about that.

[00:01:51] We're gonna talk about Sink or Swim.

[00:01:52] But please welcome to the podcast Veronica Agarwal and Lee Durfee-Lavoy.

[00:01:57] Veronica, Lee, how are the two of you doing today?

[00:01:59] We're great.

[00:02:00] We're doing wonderful.

[00:02:00] Thank you so much for having us.

[00:02:01] Thank you so much for the introduction.

[00:02:04] And yeah, thank you for having us here again.

[00:02:06] We had a great time with the written interview a couple of years ago, and so we're happy to be back.

[00:02:12] Thank you.

[00:02:13] Yeah, I was really excited to reach out to you after I had heard about and then read Just Roll With It and was just such a huge fan of that book.

[00:02:25] I got it for my oldest.

[00:02:27] She's gonna be 12 next month.

[00:02:30] But she read it and, you know, her and I talked about it.

[00:02:33] And just recently, maybe a month or two ago, my friend Dan was over with two of his kids.

[00:02:41] And we were talking about different things.

[00:02:43] And the topic of, like, anxiety came up.

[00:02:45] And I said, oh, have you ever read Just Roll With It?

[00:02:48] And I lent it to his oldest.

[00:02:51] And she, like, she borrowed his phone and texted me a few days later saying that she loved it.

[00:02:58] And then Dan let me know that when I told him about Sink or Swim that he had gotten that for his daughter as well.

[00:03:07] Thank you.

[00:03:07] That's awesome.

[00:03:09] Yeah, I just, I, there were just so many things that I loved about Just Roll With It.

[00:03:14] But for any listeners who don't know, the main character in Just Roll With It, I think she's going into sixth grade.

[00:03:22] And she's dealing both with anxiety and obsessive compulsive disorder.

[00:03:28] And it's, she has like a D20, a 20-sided die that she rolls.

[00:03:34] And it seems very quirky at first.

[00:03:37] But you, as you get into the book, you realize that it's not just something that she uses to kind of help her deal with it.

[00:03:46] It's something that she, you know, has to use.

[00:03:48] And the issues that she's dealing with are dealt with, I think, in such a loving and kind of mature way.

[00:03:55] And you populated the cast with really like three-dimensional, with a three-dimensional support system for her.

[00:04:02] There's also a role-playing game involved, like there is in Sink or Swim.

[00:04:05] And just, just, just wonderful.

[00:04:08] Like all around.

[00:04:10] So.

[00:04:10] Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[00:04:12] Those are all things that we really tried our hardest to do.

[00:04:14] So hearing that you saw that and appreciated that really means the world.

[00:04:19] Thank you.

[00:04:20] Yeah, and then so Sink or Swim is the follow-up to Just Roll With It.

[00:04:25] I mean, I say follow-up, it's, I feel like spiritually, I guess, or philosophically maybe is the right word.

[00:04:32] It's a, it's a sequel.

[00:04:34] It's a different cast of characters.

[00:04:36] And now your main character, Ty, is kind of at summer camp.

[00:04:43] And, and, you know, Ty recently broke his arm and is now kind of, now that it's, it's, it's healed and he's out of the cast.

[00:04:50] But he's kind of dealing with a lot of, a lot of things as a result of that, that he's kind of struggling with.

[00:05:00] But, but why don't, you know, why don't you tell the listeners, whichever one of you wants to start, you know, in your own words about like Sink or Swim.

[00:05:08] Yeah.

[00:05:10] You did a really, a really good job, I think.

[00:05:12] So Sink or Swim is about a young boy named Ty who, like Jimmy said, he, he breaks his arm and he used to be like the captain of the swim team.

[00:05:22] And then he was laid up for a couple of months and that inactivity really kind of made him sit with some thoughts and that he didn't really like.

[00:05:32] And then he, he started to really be critical of himself and of his body and the way that he looked.

[00:05:36] And he started to have, you know, a lot more anxiety, a lot more anxious thoughts.

[00:05:40] And he withdrew from his friends and his social life.

[00:05:45] And, and now that the cast is off and summer started, he gets thrown back into a situation at summer camp where he has to kind of, kind of readjust almost to society and friends and the complications that come with that and still grappling with his own internal issues.

[00:06:08] Yeah.

[00:06:09] Yeah.

[00:06:09] And Sink or Swim, like you said, is this sort of spiritual successor to Just Roll With It.

[00:06:18] And Maggie from Just Roll With It, the main character, Just Roll With It.

[00:06:21] And some of her friends reappear in Sink or Swim.

[00:06:24] Some of the side characters from Just Roll With It.

[00:06:27] To be a little more prominent in Sink or Swim, the three main characters of Sink or Swim, which is Ty, his best friend, Max, and Max's twin sister, Heather.

[00:06:36] There are brand new characters, but you do get to see some of the old cast come up.

[00:06:43] And so we had a lot of fun with that.

[00:06:44] We had a lot of fun making new characters.

[00:06:46] We had a lot of fun deciding who's going to come back as a more important character or as a more, or as a character with more screen time, so to speak.

[00:06:57] You get to flesh out those characters a little more than we were able to in the first one.

[00:07:02] So it was a blast.

[00:07:03] It was a blast writing it, and it was also a little scary.

[00:07:09] As we kind of say about Just Roll With It is that it's, in a way, more of Veronica's baby.

[00:07:16] Because we kind of take some of her issues.

[00:07:20] Like, Veronica, you've talked about this before.

[00:07:24] You were diagnosed with OCD while we were making Just Roll With It.

[00:07:30] So a lot of Just Roll With It is really personal to her.

[00:07:33] And then a lot of Sink or Swim is really personal to me.

[00:07:38] And after we had done Just Roll With It, which, as you know, is a multi-year process to make a graphic novel.

[00:07:48] Because it's not just six months and you're done.

[00:07:51] It's maybe three or four years of work.

[00:07:57] So after we had done Just Roll With It and I, you know, where I'm plumbing the depths of Veronica's issues and my issues to really try to create those 3D characters, like you said.

[00:08:09] And then we were lucky enough to make the second one.

[00:08:13] And when it was time to decide what's this next book going to be, I was kind of at a place where I could look at some of my own stuff that I had and hadn't really dealt with.

[00:08:24] You know, both as a kid and been like, you know, I feel like I could tell this story now and be honest to some other kids who might need it.

[00:08:36] And, yeah, so that's where Sink or Swim came from.

[00:08:43] Wow.

[00:08:44] Yeah, I mean, I had known that about Just Roll With It and kind of being, I guess, like more of Veronica's story.

[00:08:56] I mean, that's not the right way to put it.

[00:08:58] But, you know, in terms of like infusing some of those things that she has dealt with into that story.

[00:09:05] And, you know, it's got to it's again, it's another story that feels so like deeply personal, you know, and I guess I want to start by saying I really appreciate you kind of.

[00:09:23] Being vulnerable, you know, as both of you in terms of a team to create these books, because there were so many things I liked about Just Roll With It and didn't know what to expect with Sink or Swim.

[00:09:37] I imagined I'd enjoy it as well.

[00:09:41] It did not realize how much like reading it today, I'd be affected by it in particular because, I mean, not just kids.

[00:09:51] It's what ties dealing with in terms of how he doesn't like how it how we look impacts, I think, a lot of people like you don't have to be a child or to be young to deal with that.

[00:10:00] And I mean, I've said some of the same things to my myself.

[00:10:05] I because I deal with, you know, not liking myself at certain times, you know.

[00:10:14] Not to be vague about it, but like I grew up in a household where my mom doesn't listen to the podcast, so I can say that.

[00:10:20] Right.

[00:10:23] My mom, I mean, you know, she was a great mom, but one of the things she would always do and still does to a certain extent is whenever she sees somebody she hasn't seen in a while and she'll tell you the story.

[00:10:36] The first thing she does is say whether or not they gain weight or lost weight.

[00:10:40] Yep.

[00:10:41] Right?

[00:10:42] Yeah.

[00:10:42] Yes.

[00:10:43] And so that's how I grew up with not and not that she ever said anything to me like, you know, you've gained not that she ever said it outwardly to me, really, like as a criticism to me.

[00:10:57] But it's something as a kid you kind of like always pick up on.

[00:11:00] Absolutely.

[00:11:01] You know, and and here I have like 45 years old and the past like two years put on some weight and it's like, oh, I hate me.

[00:11:10] And then it's like, man, if anybody else came to me and said that they don't like how they look, they'd hate themselves.

[00:11:16] The first thing I would say is, hey, don't be so hard on yourself.

[00:11:19] Like if you need to make changes because you don't like how you look like you can do that.

[00:11:24] You put don't being so hard on yourself is not helping.

[00:11:28] It's not helping.

[00:11:29] You know, it's and I'm I it's so hard for me to do for myself.

[00:11:35] Yeah.

[00:11:35] Um, and so I I had a real experience as a 45 year old, uh, you know, married father of two, um, reading Ty's story because I was like, oh, I do this.

[00:11:48] You know, I do this now.

[00:11:49] I like still beat myself up about it.

[00:11:53] And, um, you had to have had something like this when I was younger that the you have such characters like the one camp counselor who's like, you know, it's just kind of like just there.

[00:12:04] He's like, I don't have all the answers.

[00:12:05] I'll try and find some stuff out for you.

[00:12:09] And that that's just got to be so it just to have that type of support or someone to listen to or someone to tell you like it's OK.

[00:12:18] Um, you just really do a good job with those elements in the story, I think, to make the kids is and the main characters, especially Ty feel heard.

[00:12:27] So, um, yeah, I just I thought that was, uh, you know, yeah, quite amazing.

[00:12:33] Something that was really important to us was highlighting like how because something that, you know, I struggled with was just roll with it was, you know, this kind of thing where we were writing all these scenes out.

[00:12:45] And I was kind of like, well, are we doing enough of this?

[00:12:48] Are we showing enough of this type of symptom?

[00:12:50] You know, are we making it clear that OCD is not just kind of this slight annoyance that it can be for some people really debilitating and really wanting to kind of, you know, do this impossible thing of covering all the bases and covering all the facets of a mental illness.

[00:13:08] Um, and so I think with Sink or Swim, we wanted to highlight like, hey, it's a lot of times you ask people in real life and they're like, you know, I don't know that much about that.

[00:13:19] But I can do research and I can find out instead of, you know, just assuming that everybody has enough experience to deal with a question that someone's going to come to them with.

[00:13:33] Um, and that part, like being okay and being actually better than trying to just be like, oh, well, I know all about that because, you know, this, that, and the other thing.

[00:13:42] Yeah.

[00:13:43] Yeah.

[00:13:44] So those, those two things that you kind of mentioned there, Jimmy, are something that we really, that we really tried for is that, like Veronica said, like kind of being realistic with it.

[00:13:54] Like not every adult you go to is going to have every answer, but someone being there to be able to like, listen and be like, I hear you.

[00:14:03] I see you.

[00:14:04] And we can try and figure this out together.

[00:14:06] Um, I think is important because you want that sort of, um, realistic expectation sometimes, you know what I mean?

[00:14:14] I think it's also really nice for adults to see that and be like, oh yeah, I don't have to come with the knowledge.

[00:14:21] We can find the knowledge together and figure out because even especially something that, you know, I've been noticing in recent years is how much overlap between different mental illnesses there are.

[00:14:32] And, um, you know, I think we covered it and just roll with it, but something that, you know, my therapist used to talk to me about was like, you know, I'd be like, would you diagnose me with anxiety?

[00:14:41] And she's like, well, maybe, but what is a diagnosis going to actually do for you?

[00:14:46] So, you know, so she was really, she is, and really is focused on, um, you know, not so much naming things.

[00:14:54] Naming is important.

[00:14:55] It gives something, it gives you a lot of power and it gives, it takes away a lot of power from things, but then it's also, you know, let's look at the symptoms as well and see like, what's like, this doesn't fall quote unquote into the category of.

[00:15:10] You know, um, body dysmorphia or something like that.

[00:15:14] And let's, you know, somewhere you are.

[00:15:18] Yeah.

[00:15:18] And like, but it's, you know, we have to treat this anyway, as opposed to like, well, this doesn't typically show up with body dysmorphia.

[00:15:25] So like, I don't know, maybe you aren't body dysmorphic.

[00:15:29] And it's like, well, you know, these things, cause it's, it's so, I mean, even physical illness is not so like, you know, like listed.

[00:15:37] It's like, oh, you have these three things and that's all you have.

[00:15:40] It's usually, you know, everybody's bodies are so different.

[00:15:44] Yeah.

[00:15:45] I just look, there were so many smart things that in terms of how you, you know, I want to, I want to give like too much away, but just in talking about it, there were so many smart things, uh, you know, to show ties like uncomfortableness.

[00:15:57] And it wasn't like always like really, you know, like explicit.

[00:16:02] It's like in subtle ways.

[00:16:04] Like he didn't want to take his shirt off at certain times.

[00:16:07] Like he wrapped himself in a towel where, you know, he was the cat co-captain or captain of the swim team.

[00:16:13] That's not, it didn't seem like before it's ever something he, he would have done.

[00:16:19] And I thought it was very, very kind of like smartly portrayed in the kind of ways.

[00:16:25] I feel like we didn't highlight that much of how Ty was before this story.

[00:16:31] Um, and so for that to have stood out as something that's pointed, I was like, oh, that's, I'm really glad that that came across.

[00:16:38] Cause I feel like there's obviously things, you know, when you're looking back at the book and you're like, oh, I don't know if, you know, if this stands out as much as I want it to.

[00:16:45] Or just this.

[00:16:45] Or whatever.

[00:16:46] Yeah.

[00:16:46] And especially like the characters talking, like we're constantly like, does this feel natural or is this clearly us adults?

[00:16:54] It gets edited so much.

[00:16:56] It gets edited.

[00:16:57] The natural dialogue is going over those, those lines of dialogue so many times.

[00:17:02] Um, but to, I don't want to talk about that, but I also want to say like the, um, like the thing with the, the keeping the shirt on it.

[00:17:09] I don't want to take it off or I'm like, those are riffing the headlines, man.

[00:17:13] Those are 100% did as a kid.

[00:17:16] That's something you do like yesterday.

[00:17:17] Yeah.

[00:17:18] Like still deal with.

[00:17:19] Yeah.

[00:17:21] Yeah.

[00:17:21] Take myself up for it now, but I can, I can manage to psych myself up to be like, okay, I'm at the beach.

[00:17:26] Take your shirt off, man.

[00:17:27] It's fine.

[00:17:28] Nobody cares.

[00:17:29] But like as a kid, not really so much, like wasn't really able to do that.

[00:17:33] Um, so like, I'm glad that it was, uh, something you noticed and like responded to cause like, yeah, that I, I really tried to make it honest.

[00:17:43] Um, and the thing that's also something that we try to do with the dialogue is like, be honest and be real.

[00:17:49] Um, cause in the first, the first, very first draft of just roll with it, um, we were editing it.

[00:17:56] And a friend of ours was like, it, it's good, but it's very afterschool special.

[00:18:01] Like it sounds like an adult talking to a child and not like children talking to each other.

[00:18:06] Uh-huh.

[00:18:07] And that's obviously not what we want.

[00:18:09] So it just roll with.

[00:18:10] It was edited.

[00:18:11] I don't know, probably three or four times before we were able to actually hand it into our editor.

[00:18:16] Um, and we kept editing it as we made it in singer swim was the same thing.

[00:18:20] We just kept editing the dialogue and, and, um, I feel like it's one of those things.

[00:18:26] Like, even now I'm like, I don't know what this even reads like because you spend, you

[00:18:31] spend so much time on it.

[00:18:32] You spend so much time on it.

[00:18:33] You're like, I hope this works.

[00:18:34] I hope somebody gets something out of this.

[00:18:36] And we've been lucky enough so far where, um, the response we've seen from it has been,

[00:18:41] uh, pretty positive where we've had people who have either come up to us at conventions

[00:18:46] and stuff and be like, Oh, I really loved it.

[00:18:47] It really meant a lot to me.

[00:18:48] Or like, Oh, uh, my child really responded to it or, um, you know, Amazon reviews or good

[00:18:55] reviews or whatever that are like, you know, this, this meant something to me or my child

[00:19:00] and we understood each other in a different way.

[00:19:04] Um, and those are all really the things that we, uh, really try for.

[00:19:08] Um, and so to have that response already has been, um, really a blessing.

[00:19:13] Um, and maybe that sounds like cliche or whatever, but it's totally true to have.

[00:19:18] Um, to put so much work into something and then have even just one, but, you know, luckily

[00:19:25] we've had more than one, but even just one person to be like, you know, this story meant

[00:19:29] something to me and made me feel better in a way.

[00:19:32] Um, like, yeah, then it's, it's worth it.

[00:19:35] Um, cause we do try to, like I said, be honest and bear, um, kind of bear our souls a little

[00:19:42] bit.

[00:19:42] Um, like there, like, like I mentioned, there are things that Ty does in the book that I 100%

[00:19:48] either did or do.

[00:19:51] Um, and so that honestly, we were hoping would, somebody would, um, understand and respond

[00:19:59] to.

[00:19:59] So, so far we've been very lucky with that.

[00:20:01] Well, I mean, I think that's fantastic.

[00:20:04] Yeah.

[00:20:04] So in that same way, thank you for being, um, you know, for, for being, um, able to talk

[00:20:11] about how you feel about the book.

[00:20:13] So thank you.

[00:20:15] Well, yeah, you're quite welcome.

[00:20:17] Um, I just, uh, I, I really responded to, to, to tie and it's just, you know, it's just

[00:20:26] like, uh, it's strange when you have that experience and you're reading something and it's, uh, I,

[00:20:31] I think you had said this before in the, when we did the written interview for just roll

[00:20:36] with it, but, you know, trying to figure out how do you make something appeal to everybody.

[00:20:40] And I, I think you said the personal is universal.

[00:20:43] Um, but it's also that thing with like, you know, in, in, with any type of writing, um,

[00:20:51] if you write something like too broadly, it kind of like loses something.

[00:20:56] And you find when you make things like more specific, it, those are the things that end

[00:21:01] up, you know, um, relating to people, whether or not it's because it feels more authentic.

[00:21:07] Um, but I just, I, I really, I guess I really found that it to be kind of like, uh, authentic

[00:21:17] in terms of ties, like feelings about himself.

[00:21:21] And, you know, it's, it's, it's interesting because it's, that's just one piece of it.

[00:21:26] And, and you really, the two of you kind of have woven this story together because, because

[00:21:32] of, uh, you like tie not being able to swim in the swim season.

[00:21:36] Like after he gets the cast off, he kind of like, doesn't want to hang out with his friends

[00:21:39] and is making excuses.

[00:21:40] So when they have to see each other at camp, there's this, you know, Max, uh, is kind

[00:21:46] of, um, you know, upset thinking that, that, uh, tie doesn't want to hang out with them

[00:21:52] for one reason.

[00:21:53] And so then ties also dealing with that because now he's essentially kind of isolated himself

[00:21:58] for a bunch of different reasons.

[00:22:00] And it's kind of all, you know, woven together in, um, yeah, it's such a good way.

[00:22:06] And, uh, Veronica, I also wanted to say in terms of the, the visually showing, um, tie kind

[00:22:15] of like, you know, surrounded by water kind of like drowning almost, uh, when, when things

[00:22:22] get kind of too heavy for him, I thought was just so, so smart how that water kind of creeps

[00:22:28] in as the tension in those panels ramps up.

[00:22:32] Thank you so much.

[00:22:33] I had, it's, it's funny.

[00:22:35] Cause that's another thing where it's like looking back on it.

[00:22:38] You're always like, could I have pushed this more?

[00:22:40] Should I have done more of this and less of that?

[00:22:42] And, you know, whatever, like it's, it's kind of ironic because I've done two books, um,

[00:22:48] centered around water.

[00:22:49] I did one, uh, years ago called Alexis for summer vacation.

[00:22:53] And now this one, um, and I almost did a third one about water.

[00:22:57] Um, and it was so funny because I'm like, it's not like I have a special connection to

[00:23:02] water.

[00:23:02] I'm not especially good at rendering water or anything like that.

[00:23:06] I'm like, Oh yeah, I'm drawing water all the time.

[00:23:09] Um, so I really tried to pay special attention to when I was doing water in this book and

[00:23:15] really give it the kind of, um, this, the sense of symbolism that it deserves.

[00:23:21] Cause it is, it can be such a huge, it's, it's, you have like literally kind of like the

[00:23:28] whole, like so much at your fingertips because it can be any shape.

[00:23:32] It can be any color.

[00:23:33] It can be, you know, all these things that you can do with it.

[00:23:35] Um, and that was another, another issue of, okay, well, which one do I pick to really

[00:23:41] kind of go with?

[00:23:43] Um, and even now I still see, you know, sometimes you're looking, I'm looking at other comics

[00:23:47] and they do something with water and I'm like, that's so cool.

[00:23:51] You know, I wouldn't have thought to do that.

[00:23:53] Or like, you know, I, you know, I didn't render my water this way.

[00:23:57] Um, but that I'm, I feel like just the fact that at least like, I hope that because I

[00:24:04] was paying attention to it being important, you know, that was enough.

[00:24:08] Um, but yeah, I'm glad, I'm glad that it did end up resonating and I've heard from other

[00:24:13] people as well, which is really, really kind, um, that they enjoyed how the water was almost

[00:24:19] like a character in itself and kind of the different ways that it's, that it behaved.

[00:24:23] Um, yeah.

[00:24:25] In the book.

[00:24:26] Well, I mean, it's, you know, it's, it's one of those things like, uh, I guess show don't

[00:24:32] tell, even though I think Ty does say it as well in the book, but it reinforces it because

[00:24:36] he's saying when he finally gets around to telling somebody, I think the counselor at first,

[00:24:41] how he's feeling, or maybe it's Max or Heather.

[00:24:43] He says, um, you know, he, he's feeling like sometimes like he can't, like he can't breathe

[00:24:49] and like to kind of like in, enforce that with, you know, seeing the water around him,

[00:24:55] I think really drives home the sense of like in his head and how he's feeling kind of how

[00:25:01] like dire it is.

[00:25:03] Um, which I think is like very important to, you know, cause he's outwardly, he got his

[00:25:09] cast off.

[00:25:10] He's at summer camp.

[00:25:11] You know, it seems like he should be, uh, doing great.

[00:25:15] And somebody, you know, who just sees him might not know that he's really struggling.

[00:25:21] Yeah.

[00:25:23] Yeah.

[00:25:23] Go ahead.

[00:25:24] I was just going to say, um, I, I think that the Veronica did like a really good job with

[00:25:29] the water.

[00:25:29] I think like, I think it's literally like the second or third page, um, where he gets the

[00:25:34] cast off and he's walking.

[00:25:35] He's still literally like in the doctor's office and there's like water on water on the floor.

[00:25:40] That's like in his mind.

[00:25:41] It's so like, like oppressive to him.

[00:25:44] And there's a scene, uh, a little bit later, but still really early on in the book.

[00:25:49] Um, that in the script, I, I had kind of an idea of what I thought it was going to look

[00:25:56] like.

[00:25:56] And then Veronica did something like kind of like totally different, like broke up like

[00:26:00] panels and pages and stuff.

[00:26:02] Yeah.

[00:26:03] Yeah.

[00:26:03] There's, there's a scene where there's a scene where his mom is trying to talk to him through

[00:26:05] the door of his bedroom.

[00:26:07] He's isolated.

[00:26:08] And like, I love that.

[00:26:10] I think you had it in the script as like one page.

[00:26:12] Yeah.

[00:26:12] And I was like, what if we made it three pages?

[00:26:15] Cause I felt, I was like at this point, you know, whatever, whatever I was thinking

[00:26:19] about, but I was like, I wanted to make it three pages.

[00:26:21] It's like right from the start, like right from the beginning, like the water's going

[00:26:24] to have this like big impactful moment to tie.

[00:26:27] And it's going to really like, like you said, kind of send all of those like messages home

[00:26:34] right from the start.

[00:26:35] Um, and it's going to stay with him basically for the rest of the book.

[00:26:39] Um, so yeah, I think she also did a great job.

[00:26:43] Um, very, like very impressive.

[00:26:46] Um, yeah, I, no, I, I, I agree.

[00:26:51] I mean, I, I, I just, Veronica, I love your, your, your style in, in terms of both of these

[00:26:56] blocks.

[00:26:57] Um, it is, it's, it's very friendly.

[00:27:00] It's very, um, accessible.

[00:27:03] There are moments when, uh, where your style, not that your style changes a little, but some

[00:27:11] of the things you do to kind of get across, um, I guess certain emotion.

[00:27:16] I really like, uh, in particular, I'm thinking when the, the look on the way tie and is it

[00:27:22] Max react when they, they hear Heather's song.

[00:27:25] I just, I love that panel.

[00:27:27] Like they're just, you know, the, I think they're like the guys and the, yeah, yeah.

[00:27:33] It's so much fun doing panels like that and, and kind of pushing what a face is.

[00:27:38] Um, but thank you so much.

[00:27:40] That really, really means a lot.

[00:27:41] Um, and is this, I think, sorry, go ahead.

[00:27:46] No, sorry.

[00:27:46] I was just going to say like, there's so many, it's, it's, I think this is the plight

[00:27:50] of every artist.

[00:27:51] Um, and I don't know, maybe every writer too, Lee, you could tell me, um, when you're,

[00:27:56] when you see other art and it's kind of like, you see like, you know, some, a renaissance

[00:28:02] painting and you're like, I want to draw like that.

[00:28:04] And then you see like, hello kitty.

[00:28:06] And you're like, I want to draw like that.

[00:28:07] And then you see, I want to draw like that.

[00:28:10] And it's like, it's never, you know, you can never have, have it all.

[00:28:13] So it's, you're constantly chasing after all these other things.

[00:28:17] Um, just because like everything is so good.

[00:28:20] A hundred percent.

[00:28:21] And so, so it makes it very hard sometimes to sit with what, you know, you've been given

[00:28:26] and what your art style is and be like, this is what, this is mine.

[00:28:31] And this is what I, you know, this is what the stuff I create looks like.

[00:28:34] And that's okay.

[00:28:35] Because so often we're looking at so many other things, um, and being like, God, that

[00:28:40] is amazing.

[00:28:41] And I want to, I want to draw like that.

[00:28:43] If I could draw like that, I could make these kinds of stories and that kind of thing.

[00:28:47] Um, and so it's very easy to forget and be thankful for like the style that you do have.

[00:28:53] So I'm like, I don't know, just you saying that made me think of that.

[00:28:56] And it made me feel very nice.

[00:28:59] Uh, well, that's, uh, I'm glad.

[00:29:01] All right, let's take a quick break.

[00:29:11] After a string of unexplained disappearances in the Southern parts of the United States,

[00:29:16] retired detective Clint searches for his white trash brother while searching for him.

[00:29:21] He ends up being abducted by aliens.

[00:29:23] He is now in the arena for big guns, stupid rednecks at intergalactic cables, newest hit

[00:29:29] show, which puts him and other humans in laser gun gladiatorial combat.

[00:29:34] And his brother is the reigning champion with 27 kills.

[00:29:39] That's the premise for a new book from band of barns, big guns, stupid rednecks.

[00:29:44] I got a chance to see an advanced preview of this book and being from the South, honestly,

[00:29:48] I was a bit skeptical going in, but they won me over and nothing is more powerful than an

[00:29:53] initially skeptic convert in my book.

[00:29:55] In Jimmy's words, big guns, stupid rednecks is many things, but it isn't subtle.

[00:30:00] It tells you exactly what it is upfront.

[00:30:02] Then it delivers with a great premise, fantastic art, and a whole mess of fun.

[00:30:06] I had a great time reading big guns, stupid rednecks and what I thought was going to be

[00:30:10] an indictment of redneck culture quickly showed it was actually a love letter, a family mystery,

[00:30:15] brother pitted against brother, aliens fighting for profit in a big arena.

[00:30:19] This truly has it all.

[00:30:21] Issue one is out already, but you can still pick up a copy on the band of bards website

[00:30:25] and current issues are available via your previews or lunar order form, or just ask your LCS.

[00:30:30] Don't miss.

[00:30:31] Let's get back to the show.

[00:30:33] Lee, so I know you had mentioned this in the last interview, but I just want to make sure.

[00:30:38] Did you actually write this on a laptop rather than your phone?

[00:30:44] Yes, yes.

[00:30:46] That's so funny.

[00:30:47] Yes.

[00:30:47] We're so proud of him.

[00:30:48] Yes.

[00:30:49] This is great on the laptop that this call is happening on.

[00:30:53] Did he use this computer after?

[00:30:54] I think you wrote it.

[00:30:57] So the laptop timeline for Lee was he was writing on the phone and then I gave him an old laptop

[00:31:05] that I used in college that was older.

[00:31:10] And then that thing started to reject Wikipedia.

[00:31:13] I couldn't look up anything on Wikipedia because of the security settings, I think.

[00:31:18] It was really weird because it would be on Chrome and it was like, you don't like this

[00:31:24] is not a secure connection.

[00:31:25] And we're like, it's Wikipedia.

[00:31:26] But apparently that's a thing that laptops can do when they're old, which doesn't make

[00:31:32] sense to me because the web browser.

[00:31:34] But anyway, I don't get it.

[00:31:35] That's weird.

[00:31:37] But so it started like basic websites.

[00:31:39] He started to not be able to go on and we're like, all right, we need to get.

[00:31:43] I would have to stop writing to go on my phone to Wikipedia something or whatever.

[00:31:48] And then like then I'm getting distracted being on the phone.

[00:31:51] So it's really funny because the way he is, he'd be like, yeah, he was like, this is fine.

[00:31:55] And I'm like, you have to go on a completely different device to use the basic like worldwide

[00:32:01] encyclopedia.

[00:32:02] Like we have to get you something.

[00:32:05] But yes.

[00:32:06] So this is a computer.

[00:32:09] Good.

[00:32:10] Well, good.

[00:32:11] I just I still I still think about that every every every time I go to write something,

[00:32:17] I just pops into my head.

[00:32:19] I'm just like, I'm like, how does how did Lee do this on a phone?

[00:32:22] I can I can like I put a story idea in like I have a running thing on like the notes app.

[00:32:28] And anytime I have an idea, I'll just throw it in there.

[00:32:30] And that's that that's that's about as much as I can do.

[00:32:33] I just could not imagine.

[00:32:35] I mean, like even now that we do a whole graphic novel on my phone, do like a lot of writing on

[00:32:40] the phone.

[00:32:41] Yeah, because like it's nice that it's portable.

[00:32:44] You can bring it with you.

[00:32:45] You don't always want to bring the laptop out.

[00:32:47] So you're always like, well, like the phone is here and I'm, you know, out at a restaurant.

[00:32:51] No, I just had this idea or whatever.

[00:32:53] Yeah.

[00:32:53] So sometimes those moments are like, oh, that flash.

[00:32:55] You still do so much of it.

[00:32:56] But any like heavy duty, like writing and editing, you're like, all right, bring out.

[00:33:02] It's bring out the big guns.

[00:33:03] I understand that basically everybody else in like America and like the technological

[00:33:08] world has already discovered this.

[00:33:10] But like cracking open like the computer and like, like sitting down to like actually like

[00:33:16] write is such a better and easier experience than doing it on the phone where it's it's

[00:33:23] I, I do use my phone constantly.

[00:33:25] I'm always writing something down.

[00:33:27] Um, I literally do it all the time.

[00:33:30] Like Veronica said, grocery store, restaurant, whatever in line somewhere.

[00:33:36] Um, but, uh, to, to, to sit there at the kitchen table or the desk or the couch or whatever and

[00:33:43] open a laptop and like, right.

[00:33:45] It's so much easier.

[00:33:46] It's such a sense of freedom when it's bigger than my hand.

[00:33:50] You're like, wow, I don't have to scroll so much.

[00:33:53] You're like, what?

[00:33:54] Wow.

[00:33:54] I can't believe this was made for the computer actually first.

[00:33:58] And then phone is the secondary.

[00:34:00] Um, but yeah, it's very funny.

[00:34:02] Well, I just wanted to, just wanted to check.

[00:34:04] Cause like, I, I do, I do think about that.

[00:34:06] Um, but is, uh, I also wanted to ask the, the game that the, the campers play in this,

[00:34:13] is that the same?

[00:34:13] I didn't check.

[00:34:14] Is that the same as in just roll with it?

[00:34:15] Is it had again or is it a new one?

[00:34:17] It is saying it is the same.

[00:34:19] Okay.

[00:34:19] Uh, tabletop game that they play and just roll with it.

[00:34:22] Yep.

[00:34:23] Oh, I thought, I thought so.

[00:34:24] Cause that was fun seeing it again.

[00:34:25] And I really like how, um, I really like what we see kind of like the gameplay and the,

[00:34:32] the, the few panels that we do, you know, we kind of see those things like happening.

[00:34:37] I really like how that's depicted.

[00:34:38] I really like, you know, kind of seeing the imagination of it all there on the page.

[00:34:44] I think that's, you know, that's a lot of fun.

[00:34:46] Cause that's the other thing about this book.

[00:34:47] You're dealing with, you know, Ty's dealing with some real issues in terms of a body image

[00:34:51] and, um, you know, conflict with his friends.

[00:34:55] And, uh, but there is also like a lot of, like a lot of just like fun in this at, at

[00:35:01] camp.

[00:35:02] They, you know, there's a swim competition that plays in this.

[00:35:06] They, uh, they build a, they want to build a boat.

[00:35:09] Um, there's a talent show.

[00:35:10] I've been there.

[00:35:11] Uh, there's a new cast of characters.

[00:35:14] Um, uh, it just, there is still a lot of, you know, enjoyable, like just fun in the book,

[00:35:22] which is just remarkable that you can kind of like weave both of those two things together.

[00:35:27] That has to be pretty tough.

[00:35:30] Thank you.

[00:35:30] That's, that's also something that we really considered about.

[00:35:33] Um, cause I remember, I don't, I don't remember what the book was called, but when I was in

[00:35:39] high school, I think in my sophomore year of high school, I'm pretty sure I w we had read

[00:35:44] a book in health class about like, like depression.

[00:35:48] I think this girl had depression in the book and it for like a,

[00:35:52] while there, it made me really like doubt what I was going through because like, it was so

[00:35:57] everything was like grim and dark and depressing.

[00:36:00] And like, like obviously like, you know, you're, if you're clinically depressed, like, yes,

[00:36:05] it can be that way.

[00:36:06] But for, um, for me, it felt so unrealistic.

[00:36:11] Like there was never any moment of like the depression commercials.

[00:36:14] Yeah, exactly.

[00:36:15] It was like, it was like in a black and white filter and everything sad all the time, but

[00:36:19] like, it didn't feel like real life to me.

[00:36:22] Like, and like, you know, you sure I'm depressed, but also I was able to have good days with

[00:36:28] friends or good days with family or whatever.

[00:36:30] I was able to laugh still, you know what I mean?

[00:36:32] Right.

[00:36:33] And so that's something that we try to be conscious about in the books is like, like, yeah, you

[00:36:38] can be going through like a really like complicated, heavy issue that you're really struggling to

[00:36:44] grasp with and still, you know, have a good day.

[00:36:46] It's just that sometimes those good days and good moments are hampered, um, by it.

[00:36:51] And like you have brain space being unnecessarily taken up by something.

[00:36:56] Um, and eventually, you know, you figure out your way to like tie and, and, and Maggie do to,

[00:37:03] to deal with that, to free up some of that brain space so they can continue to focus and

[00:37:06] have those good days and good moments.

[00:37:09] Um, but yeah, we, we do try to, to blend those two things because it does feel like real

[00:37:14] life to us.

[00:37:16] Um, and in the books that we're writing are, you know, realistic fiction and it's important

[00:37:21] for us to try and, um, make it look like real life, which is why you see characters who are

[00:37:27] different skin colors and sexualities and physical abilities and stuff like that.

[00:37:32] Um, because it's real life.

[00:37:35] Like, like, you know, every now and then you'll see a comment or whatever, like, Oh, I really

[00:37:38] love the representation.

[00:37:39] And like, it's true.

[00:37:42] There is representation, but it's not something that like, we're, we're trying to get like representation

[00:37:47] points.

[00:37:48] You know what I mean?

[00:37:49] It's just like, right.

[00:37:50] You're, you're trying to like show what the kid, the kid's world is really like.

[00:37:55] And all the different, all the different kids that populate the camp or, you know, because

[00:38:01] those types of kids are in camp.

[00:38:06] Um, uh, speaking of, I think newer characters, but, um, uh, Max and, uh, ties other, uh, punk

[00:38:14] mate, uh, Dan, um, really like Dan.

[00:38:18] And I was curious.

[00:38:21] Um, it just, this is like a little thing, but, but, but stuff that I always like wonder

[00:38:26] when, you know, you're writing stuff, uh, or, you know, drawing it and it coming together,

[00:38:32] like out of all the things that Dan could have been looking for, why the, why the, what

[00:38:37] was it?

[00:38:37] The Hercules beetle.

[00:38:39] Yeah.

[00:38:40] Well, why that?

[00:38:41] I was just, I was just curious.

[00:38:42] I was like, Oh, that, that looks, that's cool.

[00:38:44] But why?

[00:38:45] And it, was there any particular reason or was just like flipping through a bug book?

[00:38:49] Well, uh, in, in just roll with it, Dan is, is one of the, is one of Maggie's friends

[00:38:53] in the RPG club.

[00:38:54] And, um, in a way he kind of saves a day and just roll with it.

[00:38:59] Cause he has like a bug catching that that's important and just roll with it.

[00:39:02] Um, and I was.

[00:39:04] Oh, that's, Oh, I, I forgot.

[00:39:06] That's right.

[00:39:07] Um, so like, like that's who Dan is.

[00:39:12] Okay.

[00:39:12] So Dan's really into bugs.

[00:39:13] Um, and so it just made sense to me that like, I don't know.

[00:39:18] Cause kids can be so like weird and silly sometimes, you know what I mean?

[00:39:21] Like he's gonna.

[00:39:22] Yeah.

[00:39:24] He wants that other bug.

[00:39:26] He's going to get that other bug.

[00:39:27] Um, yeah, originally I, um, I would, I like, I was going to make like a super bug, like

[00:39:36] whatever, like a, like a totally fictional bug.

[00:39:39] I, uh, I don't remember why we picked, I think honestly based on like cuteness.

[00:39:47] Yeah.

[00:39:48] It was like, what's, what's like, what's an easy bug to like.

[00:39:50] I mean, cause I, I play at the time of writing, of making this, I was playing a lot of animal

[00:39:55] crossing and I've been an animal crossing fan my whole life.

[00:39:57] So like the Beatles, the way that they do them in that game are very cute.

[00:40:02] Like those are like, those are worth a lot of bells.

[00:40:04] Those are like some valuable bugs and they look valuable when you look at them.

[00:40:07] It's like a, like a hefty bug.

[00:40:09] Yeah.

[00:40:09] Um, so the, I mean, there's no like a symbolic, like a metaphorical philosophical reason for

[00:40:15] it to be that bug.

[00:40:16] Um, from there we went on like what, what bugs would actually be in.

[00:40:20] This kind of general part of the country.

[00:40:24] Yeah.

[00:40:25] That they would be found and we're like, this one looks good.

[00:40:29] Yeah.

[00:40:29] I didn't know if there was any like meaning behind it.

[00:40:31] That's not why, you know, I asked in particular, I'm just always kind of curious as to like

[00:40:35] those, you know, those choices.

[00:40:37] And, and sometimes it could be, there is some, you know, meaning behind it.

[00:40:43] It's like, what's easy to draw.

[00:40:45] What's cute.

[00:40:46] What looks good on the page.

[00:40:48] Yeah.

[00:40:48] Like it could have easily been so many other things, but we, what doesn't feel like it

[00:40:52] doesn't complicate the story in a way.

[00:40:54] Like it doesn't, Oh, he's not getting a, uh, of a snake.

[00:40:58] You know what I mean?

[00:40:58] Exactly.

[00:40:59] Like the snake in the cabin.

[00:41:01] What the hell are they going to do with that?

[00:41:02] It's just a little, a little cute little bug that looks kind of cool.

[00:41:05] It's like, it could have been many other things, but just like the way that, you know, we were

[00:41:10] like, okay, we're going with this and now we're going in this direction.

[00:41:12] And how do we pick which bug it is?

[00:41:15] And like, you know, those are how the pieces fell.

[00:41:18] Um, but yeah, it is, it is interesting when you think about that.

[00:41:21] Cause I think with other books, I too would be curious, like, Oh, why'd you pick, you

[00:41:25] know, this kind of thing?

[00:41:26] You know, what were your thoughts with that?

[00:41:28] Um, there's a quote and I believe it's, um, and I could be wrong.

[00:41:34] So nobody get mad at me and quote me about it, but I believe it's, um, Akira Kurosawa,

[00:41:39] the Japanese director.

[00:41:40] And they, somebody asked like, Oh, why'd you shoot this movie?

[00:41:43] Or why'd you shoot this scene like that?

[00:41:45] And his answer was like, well, if I shot it two inches to the right, it's the highway.

[00:41:50] And if it's two inches to the left, it's, you know, the meatpacking plant or whatever.

[00:41:55] This is the only shot I could do.

[00:41:57] Um, so kind of the same, some of the stuff in the books is because it's, it's the, it's

[00:42:03] practical.

[00:42:04] It's easy.

[00:42:04] Veronica has to draw it 300 times.

[00:42:06] Um, it can't be, um, something that, that makes her hand cramp up each time.

[00:42:12] Um, and it's going to be, uh, can't be a spider.

[00:42:15] Cause I'm not going to be wanting to look at reference pictures of spiders.

[00:42:18] Yeah, exactly.

[00:42:19] Good point.

[00:42:20] Yeah, that's a good, that's a good point.

[00:42:21] It can't be a bug.

[00:42:22] You don't want to look at reference for.

[00:42:26] Yeah, I would agree with the no, no spiders.

[00:42:28] So I'm right there with you.

[00:42:31] Um, well, that's great.

[00:42:33] Uh, so do, uh, did the two of you like have like setting this at a summer camp?

[00:42:39] Like, do you have any particular, like, did you go to like summer camp memories?

[00:42:44] Were you, you know, the type of kids that went to summer camp?

[00:42:48] Okay.

[00:42:49] Funnily enough, I never went, I've never been to sleep away camp.

[00:42:52] When I was a kid, I was very like introverted, attached to my parents in, in elementary school

[00:42:59] in fifth grade.

[00:43:00] All the fifth grade kids went high, which I could remember the name of the camp, but like

[00:43:05] for the fifth grade trip, like everybody got to go for maybe a week or a few days.

[00:43:09] I don't remember to a sleep away camp.

[00:43:11] And I was like, I don't want to do that.

[00:43:14] Can I stay?

[00:43:15] And so there was me and like, maybe like two other kids who for whatever reason didn't go

[00:43:21] on this trip.

[00:43:21] And we were in a spare classroom for a week, dissecting owl pellets and doing camp adjacent

[00:43:28] because I was too much of a scaredy cat to go stay away from home.

[00:43:33] Um, but yeah, I have never been to sleep away camp.

[00:43:36] So I feel like to a degree, like I was like, man, I hope this is even remotely what a cabin

[00:43:41] looks like.

[00:43:42] I feel like the cabins I drew probably look way nicer than what they would actually look

[00:43:46] like.

[00:43:46] Cause I was like, I mean, this would, but you know, when you go there, there's spiders

[00:43:51] everywhere.

[00:43:51] Yeah.

[00:43:52] That's probably why I didn't go.

[00:43:53] I never went to like a sleep away camp like that with like other kids, like my age, but

[00:43:57] my family, um, would go to like a campground, uh, for like a weekend in like, uh, in the

[00:44:05] summer.

[00:44:06] Um, and then it's like, at least you've been camping.

[00:44:09] I've been camping.

[00:44:10] I've been, I've been camping in an RV.

[00:44:12] You know what I mean?

[00:44:12] Um, yeah.

[00:44:14] But then the campground, like the head office like burned down.

[00:44:17] So we stopped.

[00:44:17] Hello.

[00:44:18] Yeah.

[00:44:19] Um, that's insane.

[00:44:20] Crazy.

[00:44:20] But I mean, I had, I had fun and, um, I, I grew up, um, I grew up on like two acres.

[00:44:27] Uh, like land that was like, it's partially like regular mode lawn and then also woods.

[00:44:33] So like me and my siblings would just go, whatever, run around, hang out in the woods.

[00:44:38] Um, so I have that connection to it, but I never, I never did a camp like Ty did.

[00:44:43] Um, but, um, I think one of the real reasons that we said it at camp is because, um, it,

[00:44:53] it forces, it forces Ty to be with his friends and it forces him to deal with those issues head

[00:44:58] on.

[00:44:59] Uh, and he can't continue to escape it and, uh, try to hide away from it.

[00:45:05] Like he's been doing at home.

[00:45:07] Um, you know, he has to figure it out one way or the other.

[00:45:12] Yeah.

[00:45:14] Oh yeah.

[00:45:14] It makes a lot of sense.

[00:45:15] Um, I, yeah, I just curious, I, I never went to like a sleep away camp either.

[00:45:19] I, and always looked on, you know, in books and TV and movies, it always looked like so

[00:45:24] much fun, but yeah, I never, I never had that experience either.

[00:45:28] It always, it always looked kind of cool.

[00:45:30] I mean, I think I went to like a day camp once where it was just like school hours.

[00:45:34] And then we, uh, you know, you only just went there and it was close to my house, but

[00:45:38] yeah, I never went to a sleep away camp either, but it always looked so cool.

[00:45:45] I'm trying to think if I would, if I would go back, if I went back in time, if I would

[00:45:48] want to change going.

[00:45:51] And I'm like, I don't think so.

[00:45:52] I'm still pretty much like a cry baby.

[00:45:55] I'm like, I don't want to be out in the woods with people.

[00:45:58] And what if the children are mean?

[00:46:01] Like that's too much to be doing.

[00:46:05] Yeah.

[00:46:05] Yeah.

[00:46:06] I mean, I, I get it.

[00:46:07] I, I, I, I do.

[00:46:08] Um, speaking of summer camps, we did just read, um, summer vamp, uh, which is another

[00:46:15] book, um, set at a, uh, sleep away camp for the summer.

[00:46:19] It was nice.

[00:46:19] I feel like a few, there were a few summer camp books that released around the same time

[00:46:23] as ours.

[00:46:23] It was kind of cute.

[00:46:24] There's one other one.

[00:46:26] Oh, something about a prodigy.

[00:46:28] Anyway, continue on.

[00:46:29] But, um, if you, if, if you've read sink or swim and, and, uh, like I will need another

[00:46:35] middle grade graphic novel.

[00:46:37] Yeah.

[00:46:37] Camp prodigy by Caroline, which I haven't read yet, but I think it, believe it came out around

[00:46:42] a similar time.

[00:46:43] Yeah.

[00:46:44] So I was like, that's cute.

[00:46:45] Summer vamp by Violet Chan Karen, which I probably mispronouncing.

[00:46:50] I apologize.

[00:46:51] Violet.

[00:46:51] We had a great time sitting next to you at a convention the other week.

[00:46:54] Um, summer vamp, really great, uh, summer camp book.

[00:46:58] All right.

[00:46:59] I will take into the, yeah.

[00:47:01] Uh, I just, I just looked it up here.

[00:47:02] What, what happens when a very human kid ends up at the wrong summer camp for vampires?

[00:47:07] Yeah.

[00:47:07] All right.

[00:47:08] And if you add it to the list, there's a great, another like face moment in there that I

[00:47:14] got to kick out of that one was, yeah, it's really delightful art and the jokes are really

[00:47:19] funny.

[00:47:20] Um, and like kind of by the end, you just like, I like by the end of the book, I was

[00:47:26] like, I don't want to say bye to these characters.

[00:47:27] Like I'm having so much fun with them.

[00:47:29] So.

[00:47:31] Yeah.

[00:47:31] I, that's like the best feeling.

[00:47:32] And I mean, I, and I, and having read sink or swim, uh, just recently, I, I can tell you

[00:47:39] that I, I felt the same way.

[00:47:41] Um, you know, I don't just, again, listeners, uh, you're going to have to read it, but I

[00:47:46] just, I, I thought the, I thought the ending was lovely.

[00:47:48] I, I just, it's so, I thought it was so good.

[00:47:54] Um, and, uh, yeah, I just, I really felt bored for Ty.

[00:47:59] Um, and you know, definitely have there been, you know, times in my life where I've, I've

[00:48:07] felt where I don't like how I look and it's a, it's a tough, you know, it's a tough thing

[00:48:11] to face to realize, like you, you look at yourself in the mirror and you're just like,

[00:48:14] I don't like, I don't, I don't like me because of all like physical stuff.

[00:48:19] And then it just affects your, your mood, your, your mental health.

[00:48:26] Um, yeah.

[00:48:27] And I just thought it was just handled so well.

[00:48:29] And, uh, in the book, um, and I, you know, really, really loved it again.

[00:48:35] Um, I just, I think it was great.

[00:48:38] Thank you.

[00:48:38] Thank you.

[00:48:39] Thank you.

[00:48:39] Did you say Lee, it was something about, you know, this kind of thing where it's like,

[00:48:44] like weighing on you constantly.

[00:48:46] And it's like, it's, you know, you're having happy days, but you're constantly thinking

[00:48:50] about this other thing.

[00:48:51] And it's like that, like, to me, I also like, I've had like crooked teeth all my life.

[00:48:56] And like, I was too scared to fix them in middle school.

[00:48:58] I'm too scared to fix them now.

[00:48:59] And it's kind of like exactly that where you're like, man, if I could just change this one

[00:49:03] thing, um, and just kind of like having it infiltrate, kind of always being in the back

[00:49:09] of your mind like that.

[00:49:10] Um, and I was talking, I wanted to mention this earlier, but I was talking to friends

[00:49:14] recently and my friend had, uh, had made like kind of a comic or a diary entry about, you

[00:49:19] know, Oh, you know, I, as a card carrying ugly person.

[00:49:23] And I was like, what the heck are you talking?

[00:49:26] I was like, you are, I was like, if you are a card carrying ugly person, like, what does

[00:49:31] that make me kind of thing?

[00:49:32] But then it, you know, it made me realize that I'm like, Oh, everybody.

[00:49:36] Cause then they posted that.

[00:49:38] And then my two other friends were like, wait, we're card carrying ugly people.

[00:49:43] And I'm like, if we're all card carrying ugly people, who's flying the plane?

[00:49:47] I was like, we need all the ugly people.

[00:49:50] Um, and it made me realize like, Oh, like, wait, you think about yourself that like, like

[00:49:56] seriously that, you know, you dislike yourself that much.

[00:49:59] It's like, I thought, I thought I was the only one.

[00:50:02] So it's just like a very interesting kind of like, you know, no matter really, no matter

[00:50:07] what kind of traits you have or someone else has, or, you know, you wish, Oh, I wish I looked

[00:50:13] like that person.

[00:50:14] That person wishes, you know, they looked like whatever.

[00:50:16] Like, it's, it's just really kind of like something.

[00:50:21] It's so easy to forget that.

[00:50:22] I think.

[00:50:22] And that's like, like another, like, like that we talked about, like before, like the,

[00:50:27] like the inner, like turmoil you have.

[00:50:29] And like, it's like, you wouldn't let, you know, you wouldn't let a friend say like, Oh,

[00:50:33] I'm so ugly.

[00:50:34] And I'm, I'm, you know, my, like, how dare you?

[00:50:37] Like, like if your friend was like, Oh, my stomach's too fat.

[00:50:40] You'd be like, it's like, you know, don't beat yourself up about it.

[00:50:44] Like, it's not like a terrible, awful thing.

[00:50:46] Like, you know, relax, but you tell yourself these things all the time.

[00:50:51] Like the thing is, is especially like, at least in this day and age, it's, I mean, at least

[00:50:55] for us, you know, we very much try to be like, you know, fat is especially because at least

[00:51:00] for people who I know who are fat, it's like, that's not a bad word.

[00:51:02] We don't want to make it that like fat is something that's bad to be.

[00:51:06] It can be just a value neutral statement.

[00:51:10] So then, you know, kind of being like, you know, maybe if your stomach is bigger, like that's

[00:51:16] okay.

[00:51:16] But then in your own head, you're like, why am I so fat?

[00:51:19] And it's like, why am I, you know, having this internal monologue?

[00:51:23] That's so toxic.

[00:51:25] And it really like made me once we started making this book, actually, and we talked to

[00:51:31] one of our other friends who is fat, you know, she was talking about, like how pervasive,

[00:51:38] like diet culture is on like television, like with commercials.

[00:51:41] And as someone who grew up skinny, I never noticed that before.

[00:51:44] And then like through making this book, I was like, oh my God, this is everywhere.

[00:51:48] And I had like no idea.

[00:51:49] I was completely blind to it.

[00:51:52] So it's just, it's just crazy because like, it's, it's kind of a weird mix of don't be that

[00:51:59] hard on yourself.

[00:52:00] But if you are hard on yourself, it's okay because you are being pummeled from every direction

[00:52:04] with negativity.

[00:52:06] And, you know, so it's, it's hard to find that, you know, bottom line is be kind to

[00:52:11] yourself.

[00:52:11] But if you can't be kind to yourself, be kind to yourself about not being kind to yourself.

[00:52:15] Well, I mean, the thing I found, you know, most like interesting, you know, and there's

[00:52:21] a lot of, you know, talk in whether or not it's on social media or, or on the news or

[00:52:27] just, you know, in general, in, in, like, like you said, in terms of the culture now diet

[00:52:34] culture saying that, you know, whether or not something's like fat phobic and, and, you

[00:52:41] know, celebrating like a healthy, like positive body image.

[00:52:48] But the things that are going on with Ty, none of it really comes from the, the external,

[00:52:54] right?

[00:52:54] Other kids aren't picking on him because now he's like gained weight.

[00:52:58] They're not calling him, you know, names.

[00:53:01] It's, it's just all in his head about who he thinks he was, who he thinks he is now and

[00:53:10] how his like physical appearance is, you know, bothering him, like what he feels about it.

[00:53:17] And it's all very, you know, um, internal, you know, which I, I think is, is probably why

[00:53:24] I think it is very relatable because it doesn't have to be that you've, you know, gained weight.

[00:53:31] It doesn't have to, it can be a million different things about your physical self that you are

[00:53:37] uncomfortable with or, or don't like and trying to come to grips with it because whether or

[00:53:42] not somebody, you know, if you're seeing outside stimuli that are telling you it's bad or making

[00:53:48] a value judgment against you, or even if it's your friend saying, Oh no, it's fine.

[00:53:53] Sometimes when there's something that doesn't, something about your physical appearance that

[00:53:58] doesn't jive with your like internal idea of who you are as a person, it can create like

[00:54:03] a real disconnect.

[00:54:04] And it's something among other things that Ty really struggles with.

[00:54:08] And it's hard because I also do like, you know, obviously that's, that comes back to

[00:54:13] the issue of, you know, wanting to highlight so many different aspects of the same issue

[00:54:19] because I've read other books where, um, you know, where a character is, you know, made

[00:54:26] fun of for being fat and, you know, or they're not taken seriously for being fat.

[00:54:30] And I'm like, Oh, you know, like, I wish we had been able to show this aspect or this

[00:54:35] side of it, or, you know, make this more obvious.

[00:54:38] But I think we really wanted to focus on with this book, um, you know, which was your intent

[00:54:43] is that like, this is about the self.

[00:54:47] Yeah.

[00:54:47] Um, there are a lot of other things that come along with, you know, being fat.

[00:54:52] Um, but for this specific issue, it's really about how you see yourself.

[00:54:58] Because I think also at the end of the day, I mean, obviously, you know, with things coming

[00:55:04] at you from outside, it does not, you know, feeling self-love can't fix, you know, everything

[00:55:09] if you're being like harassed and bullied that's, you know, self-loving yourself is not going

[00:55:13] to make that painless.

[00:55:16] Um, but you know, having that foundation, I think is very important.

[00:55:21] I think that's what you wanted to focus on.

[00:55:23] Yeah.

[00:55:23] Cause sometimes like, like, like growing up as like a fat kid, it was, it's like a, like

[00:55:28] a, almost like a personal condemnation you make of yourself.

[00:55:31] Like it's bad.

[00:55:33] I'm bad.

[00:55:34] Um, and so some of that stuff is like what, what I deals with.

[00:55:38] And it's like, it's really not, you know what I mean?

[00:55:42] It's just, it's like, you get one body, that's it done.

[00:55:46] Um, you know, and even if you believe in reincarnation, it's a different body next time, get the one

[00:55:52] this time.

[00:55:53] Um, so you have to, you know, try to be kind to yourself.

[00:55:56] And that's something that I, I try to keep in mind the entire time I was making the book

[00:56:02] and like the, the dedication that, uh, I made in the book is so like the, the me who was

[00:56:08] like a kid and who, who wasn't comfortable, um, with himself.

[00:56:14] Um, because like I said, you only get one life and you can waste a lot of it.

[00:56:19] Um, hurting yourself and talking bad about yourself.

[00:56:23] Um, when you don't have to kick your ass, but you don't have to kick your own ass.

[00:56:32] Yeah, exactly.

[00:56:33] Yeah.

[00:56:34] No, that's, that's definitely true.

[00:56:37] And I, I think you showed a lot of, um, love and, and care in, um, both of you in crafting

[00:56:46] this story and kind of really breathing life into tie.

[00:56:50] And, uh, yeah, I, I think it was wonderful.

[00:56:53] Um, so much.

[00:56:56] So, yeah, I mean, I, uh, I encourage everyone listeners, uh, sink or swim.

[00:57:01] And if you haven't read, just roll with it, go get it.

[00:57:04] And look, if you're listening to this and you're, I mean, I'm 45, I have a seven and

[00:57:09] Charlotte will be 12 next month.

[00:57:12] So I have a seven and a 12 year old and, uh, Charlotte love just roll with it.

[00:57:17] Um, she wants to read sink or swim.

[00:57:19] I, I, I read it first, so she hasn't had a chance yet because I had to get ready for

[00:57:23] this interview.

[00:57:24] Um, but yeah, uh, it's something that I, I still got so much out of both of these books,

[00:57:29] but especially if you have a younger person in your life, whether that's a, you know,

[00:57:34] your own kid or, uh, um, a relative.

[00:57:38] I mean, these, these, these books are really wonderful, really well crafted.

[00:57:43] And, um, you'd be surprised just because something is labeled like YA or middle grade, how much

[00:57:49] you will benefit from this story, because as somebody who is, you know, not often kind

[00:57:56] to himself, um, it meant a lot to me.

[00:58:01] So, uh, so go get it listeners.

[00:58:04] And again, Veronica and Lee, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

[00:58:08] Thank you for having us.

[00:58:09] Thank you for your kind words.

[00:58:11] Exactly what she said.

[00:58:12] Thank you for your kind words.

[00:58:13] Thank you.

[00:58:14] All right.

[00:58:15] Um, well, listeners, uh, sink or swim is out now and just roll with it.

[00:58:19] Uh, go get them, check your local library too.

[00:58:21] They, they, they probably have them or ask your library to carry them.

[00:58:25] A lot of people don't know that you can do that.

[00:58:27] Ask your library to carry the book and they'll, they'll get it for you.

[00:58:29] So you and others can check it out.

[00:58:31] Um, but yeah, this has been Jimmy Gasparo for the club comic book, Yeti cryptid creator

[00:58:35] corner.

[00:58:36] Uh, thanks for listening and I'll see you next time.

[00:58:39] All right.

[00:58:40] Good night.

[00:58:41] This is Byron O'Neill.

[00:58:42] One of your hosts of the cryptid creator corner brought to you by comic book Yeti.

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